seachem matrix bio best ? - Page 4
Planted Tank Forums
Your Tanks Image Hosting *Tank Tracker * Plant Profiles Fish Profiles Planted Tank Guide Photo Gallery Articles

Go Back   The Planted Tank Forum > Specific Aspects of a Planted Tank > Equipment


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-01-2013, 11:52 PM   #46
Darkblade48
Moderator
 
Darkblade48's Avatar
 
PTrader: (3/100%)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 9,216
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lipadj46 View Post
It doesn't
Quote:
Originally Posted by youdontknowme View Post
You have to have low flow rate to grow anaeroboc
As I suspected, I think exv152 meant nitrification and not denitrification

I was just looking for clarification.
__________________
Anthony

A Primer to Pressurized CO2 and A Primer to Planted Tanks
Eheim Pimp #362 - Eheim 2213 x2, Eheim 2028, Eheim 2217, Eheim surface skimmer and Eheim autofeeder.
Victor Pimp #33 - HPT272-125-350-4M
Darkblade48 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 02-02-2013, 12:40 AM   #47
driftwoodhunter
Planted Tank Guru
 
PTrader: (23/100%)
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Christiansburg, Va
Posts: 2,756
Default

Anthony, can you please tell me the difference between nitrification and denitrification? I know I have links that explain this somewhere, but I am feeling so yucky after being out in the cold today that I can't think straight. For the life of me I can't remember what denitrification is...thanks!

PS - congrats again on moderator, in case people haven't noticed!
__________________
The Fraternity of Dirt # 7 - Daughter of the Dirt - Canon Club #018
Twin 29g Dirt Tanks on an Iron Stand - DIY 3D Backgrounds
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/ta...stand-pic.html
The Behemoth - 125 dirt tank
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=199772
driftwoodhunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2013, 12:54 AM   #48
Darkblade48
Moderator
 
Darkblade48's Avatar
 
PTrader: (3/100%)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 9,216
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by driftwoodhunter View Post
Anthony, can you please tell me the difference between nitrification and denitrification? I know I have links that explain this somewhere, but I am feeling so yucky after being out in the cold today that I can't think straight. For the life of me I can't remember what denitrification is...thanks!

PS - congrats again on moderator, in case people haven't noticed!
Nitrification is the process of converting ammonia to nitrates, and requires an aerobic environment.

Denitrification is the reverse process; converting from nitrates to nitrogen gas.

That is the general gist of things. There are some bacteria that can carry out more/less steps of each pathway and/or carry the process further (i.e. all the way to nitrogen gas rather than just nitrite, etc).

Also, thank you for your kind words. I look forward to making TPT an enjoyable experience for everyone.
__________________
Anthony

A Primer to Pressurized CO2 and A Primer to Planted Tanks
Eheim Pimp #362 - Eheim 2213 x2, Eheim 2028, Eheim 2217, Eheim surface skimmer and Eheim autofeeder.
Victor Pimp #33 - HPT272-125-350-4M
Darkblade48 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2013, 01:19 AM   #49
exv152
Wannabe Guru
 
exv152's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,308
Default

I just looked up the matrix product description on seachem's website, and they claim:

"...These macropores are ideally sized for the support of nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria. This allows Matrix™, unlike other forms of biomedia, to remove nitrate along with ammonia and nitrite, simultaneously and in the same filter. "http://www.seachem.com/Products/prod...es/Matrix.html
__________________
Eheim Pimp Club,# 496
25g 60-H iwagumi
125g high tech
7g cube
33g iwagumi cube
75g low tech angelfish tank
exv152 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2013, 02:16 AM   #50
Darkblade48
Moderator
 
Darkblade48's Avatar
 
PTrader: (3/100%)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 9,216
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by exv152 View Post
I just looked up the matrix product description on seachem's website, and they claim:

"...These macropores are ideally sized for the support of nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria. This allows Matrix™, unlike other forms of biomedia, to remove nitrate along with ammonia and nitrite, simultaneously and in the same filter. "http://www.seachem.com/Products/prod...es/Matrix.html
What an interesting claim; I just don't see how this is possible...

Time to e-mail Seachem support
__________________
Anthony

A Primer to Pressurized CO2 and A Primer to Planted Tanks
Eheim Pimp #362 - Eheim 2213 x2, Eheim 2028, Eheim 2217, Eheim surface skimmer and Eheim autofeeder.
Victor Pimp #33 - HPT272-125-350-4M
Darkblade48 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2013, 04:04 AM   #51
youdontknowme
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: earth
Posts: 63
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkblade48 View Post
What an interesting claim; I just don't see how this is possible...

Time to e-mail Seachem support
Its possible. There is anoxic zones in the media. Where there is deplete of oxygen, thus allowing anaerobic bacteria to grow. Aerobic bacteria ( not sure how to spell ) will be on the outer side of the pores, consuming oxygen. That is why deep inside the pores, there is lack of oxygen.
youdontknowme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2013, 04:49 AM   #52
kevmo911
Planted Tank Guru
 
kevmo911's Avatar
 
PTrader: (32/100%)
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 3,895
Default

I'm hesitant to point this out, as I have no interest in starting another argument about the necessity of bio-media, but because nobody has mentioned it (or I missed it), and cost seems to be a factor in this thread...

Many of us have gone the route of zero bio-media and have perfectly happy plants and fish. While there are a couple valid reasons to use bio-media in a filter, there's plenty of surface area for bacteria to colonize on without adding volcanic rock to the filtration process. Remember, also, that mech-media is *also* bio-media, without exception. Adding bio-media will not increase the amount of beneficial bacteria in the system. It will only provide an area of higher concentration of bb.

Again, there are a couple valid arguments for bio-media, and there are similarly valid arguments to the contrary. Good luck with whatever you decide!
kevmo911 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2013, 05:43 AM   #53
Darkblade48
Moderator
 
Darkblade48's Avatar
 
PTrader: (3/100%)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 9,216
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by youdontknowme View Post
Its possible. There is anoxic zones in the media. Where there is deplete of oxygen, thus allowing anaerobic bacteria to grow. Aerobic bacteria ( not sure how to spell ) will be on the outer side of the pores, consuming oxygen. That is why deep inside the pores, there is lack of oxygen.
Yes, I was thinking the same thing; somehow, the media must create localized anaerobic spots for denitrification to occur.

However, what would be the purpose (if anaerobic bacteria truly are present)? Denitrification would take the nitrates that are produced by the aerobic bacteria, and convert back to nitrites...which are then converted back to nitrates by the aerobic bacteria.

On top of this, the aerobic bacteria would be much in excess compared to the anaerobic bacteria, meaning nitrification would be very favoured.
__________________
Anthony

A Primer to Pressurized CO2 and A Primer to Planted Tanks
Eheim Pimp #362 - Eheim 2213 x2, Eheim 2028, Eheim 2217, Eheim surface skimmer and Eheim autofeeder.
Victor Pimp #33 - HPT272-125-350-4M
Darkblade48 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2013, 01:46 PM   #54
CrypticLifeStyle
Wannabe Guru
 
PTrader: (8/100%)
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Boston
Posts: 1,223
Default

This whole pumice talk made me research its debate the last couple days, and I can't find any evidence it'd the same as matrix. There's a lot of suspect it is, and a lot of visual similarity's but if you put it under a microscope it is different. No one really has a technical true answer to what it really is from my readings.
__________________
I'm not into the image, but into the hobby...
CrypticLifeStyle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2013, 01:49 PM   #55
youdontknowme
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: earth
Posts: 63
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrypticLifeStyle View Post
This whole pumice talk made me research its debate the last couple days, and I can't find any evidence it'd the same as matrix. There's a lot of suspect it is, and a lot of visual similarity's but if you put it under a microscope it is different. No one really has a technical true answer to what it really is from my readings.
totally agree with you although it looks similar , it doesnt mean it is the exact same .
youdontknowme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2013, 02:38 PM   #56
Rob in Puyallup
Opae Ula Crazed.
 
Rob in Puyallup's Avatar
 
PTrader: (3/100%)
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Puyallup, WA
Posts: 1,400
Default Re: seachem matrix bio best ?

I agree, it looks nothing like the pumice that we find around here from Mt St Helens.

Perhaps it's similar to rockwool. A mineral that's melted then spun in the cooling process?

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S III using Tapatalk 2
Rob in Puyallup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2013, 05:04 PM   #57
VAtanks
Planted Member
 
PTrader: (1/100%)
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: VA BCH
Posts: 235
Default

To further fuel this discussion currently in my FX5 from top to bottom I have filter floss (walmart quilt batting), ring two (Pumice- BBQ grill scrubbers broken into inch pieces) ring three same as ring two. This same set up I use on my fluval 205 for my 29 gallon. I run zero chem and when i clean the filters I rinse tray two one month then tray 3 the following. BBQ scrubbers are 100% pumice, little dusty but a whole box of them i believe was like 10 bucks and filled one whole tray in my FX5.
But to field the question about zero oxygen zones, I would say that since pumice and matrix has pores that pass completely through it, wouldn't it require collection of debris on both sides of the pore to creat this dead zone?
__________________
29g Tetra Tank
100g Planted Angel/Clown Loach
I can't spell...Im an engineer, I do math

Last edited by VAtanks; 02-04-2013 at 05:05 PM.. Reason: My spelling is as terrible as my proof reading
VAtanks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2013, 05:07 PM   #58
VAtanks
Planted Member
 
PTrader: (1/100%)
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: VA BCH
Posts: 235
Default

CrypticLifestyle, I will find that answer out for you tomorrow night in my Chemlab class, I will take one piece of Matrix and one BBq scrubber into lab class with me and examine it and hopefully photograph it adnd I will post the findings here, I might be able to get some grad students to chem analize it for us too.
__________________
29g Tetra Tank
100g Planted Angel/Clown Loach
I can't spell...Im an engineer, I do math
VAtanks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2013, 05:59 PM   #59
exv152
Wannabe Guru
 
exv152's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,308
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkblade48 View Post
Yes, I was thinking the same thing; somehow, the media must create localized anaerobic spots for denitrification to occur.

However, what would be the purpose (if anaerobic bacteria truly are present)? Denitrification would take the nitrates that are produced by the aerobic bacteria, and convert back to nitrites...which are then converted back to nitrates by the aerobic bacteria.

On top of this, the aerobic bacteria would be much in excess compared to the anaerobic bacteria, meaning nitrification would be very favoured.
I think, and I'm not an expert by any means, the actual process in denitrification involves bacteria reducing nitrates to nitrites, and then reducing that to two things; nitrogen gas and ammonia. The part that's converted back to ammonia will get used again by the bb, but the part turned into nitrogen gas is not usable and is lost to the atmosphere.
__________________
Eheim Pimp Club,# 496
25g 60-H iwagumi
125g high tech
7g cube
33g iwagumi cube
75g low tech angelfish tank
exv152 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2013, 08:16 PM   #60
Darkblade48
Moderator
 
Darkblade48's Avatar
 
PTrader: (3/100%)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 9,216
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by VAtanks View Post
CrypticLifestyle, I will find that answer out for you tomorrow night in my Chemlab class, I will take one piece of Matrix and one BBq scrubber into lab class with me and examine it and hopefully photograph it adnd I will post the findings here, I might be able to get some grad students to chem analize it for us too.
I'll be waiting for mass spectrometry results then. But seriously, I don't think you'll find many helpful graduate students, trust me, I know from experience. I was one of them

Quote:
Originally Posted by exv152 View Post
I think, and I'm not an expert by any means, the actual process in denitrification involves bacteria reducing nitrates to nitrites, and then reducing that to two things; nitrogen gas and ammonia. The part that's converted back to ammonia will get used again by the bb, but the part turned into nitrogen gas is not usable and is lost to the atmosphere.
Neither am I, my research had nothing to do with soil bacteria

A quick search on Pubmed reveals that denitrification generally involves bacteria reducing nitrates to nitrogen through the nitrite intermediary. There are some bacteria that just leave it at the nitrite step (meaning it would be available for beneficial bacteria), while some take it all the way to nitrogen gas.

While direct reduction to ammonium from nitrates is possible, apparently it is rarer than going through the nitrite intermediate.

I still find it hard to believe that an anaerobic environment could exist in a canister filter with good flow and porous media. Now, if it were a plenum, I could see it happening.
__________________
Anthony

A Primer to Pressurized CO2 and A Primer to Planted Tanks
Eheim Pimp #362 - Eheim 2213 x2, Eheim 2028, Eheim 2217, Eheim surface skimmer and Eheim autofeeder.
Victor Pimp #33 - HPT272-125-350-4M
Darkblade48 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Planted Tank LLC 2012