The "One-Two Punch" Whole Tank Algae Treatment - Page 5
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Old 01-22-2013, 07:56 PM   #61
farrenator
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Yeah, I'm not saying that the chemical treatment wasn't the cause of the death, I am just wondering if it was chemicals + large water change.

Is it routine for you to do 50% water changes? In other words, would a 50% water change be a departure from the norm for your tank inhabitants? Maybe this is irrelevant, don't know, but curious.

The reason I ask is b/c I do 50% changes every Sunday, and my ottos are fine. BUT, looks like it is wise to tread lightly on this protocol

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Originally Posted by karatekid14 View Post
I understand that my tank would be more fragile than a 75 but I believe that something else happend. Okay exactly what I did
1. tank age: 15 months, I only had lost an oto
2. stopped filter
3. turned on pumps, 325 gph
4. dosed 70 mL H2O2
5. waited 15 min, re-adjusted pumps
6. 50% water change took 8 min
7. dosed 5 mL excel
8. 20 min later noticed otos acting odd, added air stone
9. 40 min later oto died
10. tested water, normal
11. over the next ~hour or less more died
12. 25% water change
13. tested water, normal
14. none died, which makes me think it was the H202

that's as best I can remember it, that was Saturday.
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Old 01-22-2013, 08:04 PM   #62
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I think the expression 'an ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure' applies here. It's pretty obviously that this treatment will have different effects on each person's tank depending on the different parameters, etc. So your kinda rolling the dice, not really knowing how it will turn out. How do you control for all those variables? you can't. Being pro-active and over-killing organic removal and other maintenance habiats from the getgo is your best bet, instead of relying on dosing chemicals with unknown effects on your livestock.
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Old 01-22-2013, 09:26 PM   #63
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Yes, but that doesn't help the person who has 'let the tank go' and is trying to re-set it rather than tear it all down and start from scratch. But your point is well taken.

I'd be curious to know whether most of the people who did this protocol and didn't experience widespread livestock death had 'relatively' larger tanks.

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Originally Posted by houseofcards View Post
I think the expression 'an ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure' applies here. It's pretty obviously that this treatment will have different effects on each person's tank depending on the different parameters, etc. So your kinda rolling the dice, not really knowing how it will turn out. How do you control for all those variables? you can't. Being pro-active and over-killing organic removal and other maintenance habiats from the getgo is your best bet, instead of relying on dosing chemicals with unknown effects on your livestock.
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Old 01-22-2013, 09:53 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farrenator View Post
Yes, but that doesn't help the person who has 'let the tank go' and is trying to re-set it rather than tear it all down and start from scratch. But your point is well taken.

I'd be curious to know whether most of the people who did this protocol and didn't experience widespread livestock death had 'relatively' larger tanks.
Look I'm not saying this can't help some people, but yeah the size of tank will play a factor as well as a bunch of other variables including everything from livestock, light, experience, dedication the list goes on, on. There's no control. It's just another eye-opener to get your house in order from the start. Excel alone is a dangerous product especially in small tanks, so many people don't realize they overdose way too much.
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Old 01-22-2013, 09:53 PM   #65
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Hi Guys,

I got my 90p - 48g tank treated with H202 to kill the BBA ( 99% killed Yahhh ) from reading here and there online. But if i know this thread existing here i would do a little different.

1) should remove the media filter i didn't do it in my case.
2) do the water change sooner didn't do either haha
3) shouldn't get excited and dosing more h202. LOL

so what i did on my 48 gal ?

Dosing H202 about 140ml while the light is on - before dosing, i shut down the filter completely and no flows in the tank ( believing that i can distributed the h202 across the water surface evenly and let it settle down to the substrate about 3-4 mins) lol. My substrate soil got inflected so i gotta to this way.

Turn on my filter to max (yes !! need to be strong so it can rotate the water and hitting every spot that got inflected)

i didn't lost any fishes or shrimps

I didn't change the water right away, not until 4 days after the h202 treatment i should've . Plus the next day, i saw the BBA turn red, i was like Yeahhh i must did it right. So i dosing another 100ml ( LOL ) while filter still running this time because i want to have the H202 dilute faster. ( i wouldn't suggested to do this way because it may kill your plants )

Here some pics for you guys to see
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Old 01-22-2013, 09:55 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farrenator View Post
Yes, but that doesn't help the person who has 'let the tank go' and is trying to re-set it rather than tear it all down and start from scratch. But your point is well taken.

I'd be curious to know whether most of the people who did this protocol and didn't experience widespread livestock death had 'relatively' larger tanks.
It can be reset without tearing it down. Removing algae covered hardscape for cleaning, removal of plants that are too far gone, substrate vacuuming, 50% water changes 2-3 times per week for a few weeks, the addition of purigen or something similar to the filter for removal of organics, filter cleaning, good flow, oxygenation, attention to lighting levels in regards to CO2, etc. will get a tank back into shape. It just takes a bit more patience than the overnight method in this thread.

To follow up what Houseofcards was saying, good ongoing maintenance will prevent most tanks from getting too far gone in the first place.
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Old 01-22-2013, 09:59 PM   #67
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Not ruling out tank size as a possible issue, but I've done this several times in my 10G at the original 4 tbsp/10G dose without problems.

Asking if 50% water changes are routine is a great idea. This could drastically alter parameters if the tank normally gets small changes, or just top-offs.

Another thought just crossed my mind. H2O2 becomes a more powerful oxidant at low pH. When I want to avoid bleach, I sometimes spritz hardscape outside of the tank with vinegar, then H2O2, and it burns through stuff that H2O2 alone won't. On micron media it also removes stains and restores flow much better than bleach or H2O2. I have no idea if this is significant at any pH that one might encounter in an aquarium, though.
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Old 01-22-2013, 10:24 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff5614 View Post
It can be reset without tearing it down. Removing algae covered hardscape for cleaning, removal of plants that are too far gone, substrate vacuuming, 50% water changes 2-3 times per week for a few weeks, the addition of purigen or something similar to the filter for removal of organics, filter cleaning, good flow, oxygenation, attention to lighting levels in regards to CO2, etc. will get a tank back into shape. It just takes a bit more patience than the overnight method in this thread.
I agree with this, but in practice often the underlying problem isn't known, and has to be determined through a long process of trial and error. During which the plant mass that has to be discarded because it's too far gone can add up so quickly, you might as well have torn it down.

A couple of personal examples, which I only found by trial and error because they were contrary to common sense and advice:

1) Once for three months I struggled with algae, with everyone consistently saying I should decrease light, which only made it worse. In the end, it was completely solved by increasing the light.

2) This treatment was originally developed to deal with my oddball staghorn, which is resistant to H2O2 or Excel alone, and grows explosively if you give it too much flow. It was solved in the long-term by reducing flow, and/or redirecting it away from plants, but it took months to figure this out.

So a good chemical reset will always be a valuable tool.
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Old 01-22-2013, 11:06 PM   #69
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The only chemical reset that I know that is always beneficial is a large water change. Assuming your dosing what the plants need the water change is always positive regardless of setup. Dosing a chemical cocktail is very risky and that risks increases with small tanks and other parameters. I'd rather do what Jeff5614 describes before I put chemicals in.
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Old 01-23-2013, 12:08 AM   #70
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Yes, not disagreeing with you, very good points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by houseofcards View Post
Look I'm not saying this can't help some people, but yeah the size of tank will play a factor as well as a bunch of other variables including everything from livestock, light, experience, dedication the list goes on, on. There's no control. It's just another eye-opener to get your house in order from the start. Excel alone is a dangerous product especially in small tanks, so many people don't realize they overdose way too much.

Last edited by farrenator; 01-23-2013 at 12:09 AM.. Reason: Qwerty
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Old 01-26-2013, 04:25 AM   #71
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Update... My 2.5g is algae free, even though I followed up with a dose of algaefix my snails (inhabitants were mts and rams horn snails) are still alive.
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Old 01-27-2013, 05:02 AM   #72
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Going to give this a shot tomorrow. I had things under control after algaefix dosing but a neglected DIY co2 bottle and removing some plant mass caused a major algae bloom. I have ordered my pressurized co2 setup and am planning on adding quite a few new plants in the next few days. I can't use the algaefix now because i have stocked the tank. I currently have 16 neon tetras, 7 Harlequin Rasboras, three amano shrimp, and a ton of ramshorn snails. I will get some before and after pictures and let everyone know how it turns out.


Any last minute advise?
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Old 01-27-2013, 09:47 AM   #73
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Any last minute advise?
Make sure you noticed my change in dosage down to 2 tbsp. 3% H2O2 per 10G, which increases the safety margin for fish in a wider variety of circumstances. It still seems effective enough against algae, according to a few reports I've gotten in the thread and PMs using the new dosage.

After seeing the reports regarding shrimp here, I was thinking about reducing the Excel as well. But given the hit-and-miss nature of these reports, as well as some discussion on the shrimp forum, I don't think any whole tank algae treatment can be 100% shrimp safe; regardless of dosage. Use only if you are willing to risk the Amanos, as the result will be essentially unpredictable.

Finally, always keep an eye on your livestock - during this or any other treatment. If you see any disturbing behavior, terminate the treatment and perform a 50% water change immediately to reduce chemical levels. Reduce CO2 (if present) and provide extra oxygenation for the next 24 hours. This will greatly alleviate stress.

Whatever you decide, let me know!
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Old 01-28-2013, 12:47 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farrenator View Post
Yeah, I'm not saying that the chemical treatment wasn't the cause of the death, I am just wondering if it was chemicals + large water change.

Is it routine for you to do 50% water changes? In other words, would a 50% water change be a departure from the norm for your tank inhabitants? Maybe this is irrelevant, don't know, but curious.

The reason I ask is b/c I do 50% changes every Sunday, and my ottos are fine. BUT, looks like it is wise to tread lightly on this protocol
I do a 50% water change every Saturday. When I clean my canister I will often do a 75% water change and the inhabitants have never shown stress. I dunno it may have just been a fluke.
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Old 01-28-2013, 02:25 AM   #75
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Well, the deed is done, here are the results.

1. Removed filter floss and seachem matrix from HOB filter.
2. Disconnected CO2 from powerhead.
3. Added 200ml of H2O2 trough HOB filter.

Everything was going good. About 5 min in the larger of the ramshorn snails fell off the front glass and retreated into his shell. Neon Tetras and rasboras were acting perfectly normal. Amano shrimp were doing their thing as well. 10 min in Tetras are still schooling well and acting normal and rasboras kinda hanging out up top, still no movement from the ramshorns, Amano shrimp start to become more active (i wouldn't say stressed, just moving around a bit more than normal). I terminate treatment at 15 min and nothing has changed from the 10 min mark.

4. Performed a 50% WC.
5. Waited 30 min and added 20ml of excel (never dosed before)
6. Ran filter and powerhead in same condition as above for 1 1/2 hour while i step out for a bite to eat.
7. Replaced filter floss and re installed bag of Matrix into filter.
8. Added 1 tsp of Acurel F and Boom!

I added the Acurel thinking it would be better to have the dead algae in the filter floss where i could dispose of it rather than having it decompose in the tank. After 30 min the water is much more clear than it has been in a long time and the filter floss is filthy. I will probably replace the floss again later tonight. One thing worth mentioning is after the dose of Acurel F, as the water cleared, my neon tetras all shot into the DHG and buried themselves. At first i thought they had all lost their mind but then i realized that they had been at the bottom of a very dark and murky aquarium for the last two weeks. I am thinking that the light is much brighter and they are hiding from it. Here are a couple pictures, i have not cleaned the glass yet and i plan on doing so tomorrow when i set up my new canister filter. Thank you darkcobra for taking the time to develop this method and if nothing changes it was very successful.



Sorry, i realized i had not taken any pictures during the WC.






And the finished product before a good cleaning.

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