DIY led lighting - have I got it right before purchasing

[-Az-]

Nick,
what are your thoughts on the red to near red ratio?

i think I read somewhere in can be used as a way to measure PUR.

more importantly, i've just been doing some reading on phytochromes and was interested in this.

"Finally, phytochrome allows plants to detect the spectral quality of light, a form of color vision, by measuring the ratio of Pr to Pfr. When a plant is grown under direct sun, the amounts of red and far-red light are approximately equal, and the ratio of Pr to Pfr in the plant is about 1:1. Should the plant become shaded by another plant, the Pr/Pfr ratio changes dramatically to 5:1 or greater. This is because the shading plant's chlorophyll absorbs much of the red light needed to produce Pfr and absorbs almost none of the far-red light used to produce Pr. For a shade-intolerant plant, this change in Pr/Pfr ratio induces the plant to grow taller, allowing it to grow above the canopy."
McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of Science and Technology

mmmm
does this mean with 2%far red we should only have equal 660nm.
if we increase both to the 20-40% range would that be detrimental.
maybe a balance. down to 7-15% for both.

what does every one think??
I'd be keen to hear your thoughts Nick.

[mistergreen]

good to know that green light is important too.
It makes sense plants that are red, brown would need more green light.

[Build My LED]

Originally Posted by -Az-

Nick,
what are your thoughts on the red to near red ratio?

i think I read somewhere in can be used as a way to measure PUR.

more importantly, i've just been doing some reading on phytochromes and was interested in this.

"Finally, phytochrome allows plants to detect the spectral quality of light, a form of color vision, by measuring the ratio of Pr to Pfr. When a plant is grown under direct sun, the amounts of red and far-red light are approximately equal, and the ratio of Pr to Pfr in the plant is about 1:1. Should the plant become shaded by another plant, the Pr/Pfr ratio changes dramatically to 5:1 or greater. This is because the shading plant's chlorophyll absorbs much of the red light needed to produce Pfr and absorbs almost none of the far-red light used to produce Pr. For a shade-intolerant plant, this change in Pr/Pfr ratio induces the plant to grow taller, allowing it to grow above the canopy."
McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of Science and Technology

mmmm
does this mean with 2%far red we should only have equal 660nm.
if we increase both to the 20-40% range would that be detrimental.
maybe a balance. down to 7-15% for both.

what does every one think??
I'd be keen to hear your thoughts Nick.

Hi Az. Since plants are not able to choose their home, they have become extremely good at adapting to their immediate environment in order to increase their chances of survival. One of the best ways they do this is by using their Phytochrome proteins to sense their environment. This category of photobiology is called photomorphogensis. This is completely different than photosynthesis, but it is a very important part of the plant’s lifecycle. With photosynthesis, we are focused on using the right type and right amount of light to grow the plant. With photomorphogenesis, we are focused on using specific light signals (photo) to impact the plants development (morphology). The Phytochrome gets a lot of attention, but we should also be aware of the Cryptochromes and Phototropins, as they both play an important part in plant development.

Back to your original question, I don’t pay too much attention to the Red to Far Red (R:FR) ratio for most lighting applications, since most people are focused on Photosynthesis (i.e. bigger plants). If you are trying to induce a Phytochrome-related response (i.e. induced flowering, delayed flowering, taller plants, etc.), then you need to pay attention to the R:FR ratio. Per my earlier post, green and far red (especially far red) are transmitted through the plant canopy at a higher rate than blue and red. Over time, plants have figured out that a high level of far red light probably means they are being shaded by taller plants. Since they need light for photosynthesis, the plants realize they need to shift their energies into growing taller to get above the other plants. If they don’t, they probably won’t survive very long. Once above the canopy, the R:FR ratio changes, and the Phytochromes tell the plant to stop growing tall/spindly, and to put their energies back to growing more leaves/branches to catch more light for photosynthesis. This is called the Shade Avoidance Response, and it is a really interesting facet of photobiology. As mentioned, you can also use 660nm and 730nm to induce or suppress flowering in short day plants (SDP) and long day plants (LDP). I have worked on large commercial photomorphogenic lighting applications, and it is really amazing stuff.



Hope that helps



Nick

[TexasCichlid]

Originally Posted by Build My LED

Hi Az. Since plants are not able to choose their home, they have become extremely good at adapting to their immediate environment in order to increase their chances of survival. One of the best ways they do this is by using their Phytochrome proteins to sense their environment. This category of photobiology is called photomorphogensis. This is completely different than photosynthesis, but it is a very important part of the plant’s lifecycle. With photosynthesis, we are focused on using the right type and right amount of light to grow the plant. With photomorphogenesis, we are focused on using specific light signals (photo) to impact the plants development (morphology). The Phytochrome gets a lot of attention, but we should also be aware of the Cryptochromes and Phototropins, as they both play an important part in plant development.

Back to your original question, I don’t pay too much attention to the Red to Far Red (R:FR) ratio for most lighting applications, since most people are focused on Photosynthesis (i.e. bigger plants). If you are trying to induce a Phytochrome-related response (i.e. induced flowering, delayed flowering, taller plants, etc.), then you need to pay attention to the R:FR ratio. Per my earlier post, green and far red (especially far red) are transmitted through the plant canopy at a higher rate than blue and red. Over time, plants have figured out that a high level of far red light probably means they are being shaded by taller plants. Since they need light for photosynthesis, the plants realize they need to shift their energies into growing taller to get above the other plants. If they don’t, they probably won’t survive very long. Once above the canopy, the R:FR ratio changes, and the Phytochromes tell the plant to stop growing tall/spindly, and to put their energies back to growing more leaves/branches to catch more light for photosynthesis. This is called the Shade Avoidance Response, and it is a really interesting facet of photobiology. As mentioned, you can also use 660nm and 730nm to induce or suppress flowering in short day plants (SDP) and long day plants (LDP). I have worked on large commercial photomorphogenic lighting applications, and it is really amazing stuff.



Hope that helps



Nick

That you for the informative post Nick. I did not know any of that.

[-Az-]

nice info
it would be fascinating to study.
slightly off topic. there are some amazing living sculptures using plants that are trained.
people are even weaving saplings to make walls and houses as they grow to trees.
nature is awesome.

[ced281]

Originally Posted by -Az-

that's some real food for thought ced
thanks

I was just reading the red spectrum causing algae. also plants (and coral) have adapted to their natural depth which means that too much red can be detrimental.

i understand what you're saying about the visual aspect of the yellows and greens.
it still amazes me that the colour things appear is the colour they're not.

i think i'll stay with my reef capable amount of blues but play with my wiring so that blues, whites, pur colours and aesthetic colours can be controlled and dimmed separately. thus i can have whatever temp/spectrum i need.

what i love about the diy led approach is that if i think i'm short of red or whatever i can just add a couple of LEDs and problem solved.

i haven't ordered yet but i shouldn't be far off. just finalizing some details.

let us know how your build goes. are you using dimmers?

Ideally I'd like to use dimmers but I'm trying to maintain a budget right now. I have 4 non-dimmable and 2 dimmable drivers but I'm not sure the dimmable drivers work. If they do, I'll have dimming capabilities for 1/2 of my LEDs (currently planning for 4x13 strings of 3W LEDs @ 700mA).

[csf]

V=IR and P=IV (I=current, V = volts, R = resistance, P = power).

Yes, the CREEs can be more efficient. That's why they are more expensive.

I don't know how linear the LEDs are with regards out input and output. Resistance can change. My general guess is they are somewhat linear until you get near max output, and then they saturate. Extra additional input equals to less additional output.

Originally Posted by ced281

Anyone know how to calculate the lumens per watts for these? Will a 5W Cree really run at 5W if you're only running at 700mA instead of it's max 1.5A?

From back in my high school days, P=IV so Power = Current * Voltage. I'm assuming that the voltage doesn't change for these guys so if you decrease current the power (wattage) should decrease proportionally.
> So the power consumption of a 5W Cree running at 700mA is closer to 2.3W.
> Which means the lumens per watt is ~113
> Whereas the lumens per watt of these "high-power" Chinese LEDs are ~60 (180lumens/3W)
> Which means the efficiency of the Crees is almost 2x!
Does that make sense???