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Old 01-08-2013, 03:34 PM   #16
DarkCobra
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Originally Posted by happi View Post
any idea how long it would take to turn the soil into muck??
The H2O2 isn't what turns the AquaSoil (AS) into muck. It attacks organic matter only. As far as I know, AS is completely inorganic, just clay enriched with nutrients and mildly baked.

But I know for certain it's designed to slowly break down, releasing nutrients into the water so plants can use them, and slowly turning to mud in the process.

I believe the concern zico_aqua is expressing is only that excessive handling, such as during a gravel vac, will accelerate the breakdown of the soft AS and may generate too much mud.

It's pretty unlikely there's still H2O2 left in the AS. It should have diffused out and been removed during the multiple water changes. It could be tested for sure by adding a bit of potassium permanganate to the water, and any H2O2 leaking out will neutralize the pink color. But I think you've had enough strong oxidizers in your tank without adding more!
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Old 01-08-2013, 05:08 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by DarkCobra View Post
The H2O2 isn't what turns the AquaSoil (AS) into muck. It attacks organic matter only. As far as I know, AS is completely inorganic, just clay enriched with nutrients and mildly baked.

But I know for certain it's designed to slowly break down, releasing nutrients into the water so plants can use them, and slowly turning to mud in the process.

I believe the concern zico_aqua is expressing is only that excessive handling, such as during a gravel vac, will accelerate the breakdown of the soft AS and may generate too much mud.

It's pretty unlikely there's still H2O2 left in the AS. It should have diffused out and been removed during the multiple water changes. It could be tested for sure by adding a bit of potassium permanganate to the water, and any H2O2 leaking out will neutralize the pink color. But I think you've had enough strong oxidizers in your tank without adding more!
am not sure if i said this already, but it has been about 2-3weeks since i dosed the H2O2, after that day i did 70% water change for 2-3days in a row.

am not sure what to do now, replace the entire aqua soil or try vacuuming it
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Old 01-08-2013, 05:12 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi Happi,

Sorry that you wiped out your tank, dosing a whole bottle will do that. Hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) is a strong oxidizer like bleach so basically you sterilized your entire tank. When I treat a tank with H2O2 (either with spot treatment or whole tank treatment) I don't dose more 1.5 ml per gallon (approx 1 teaspoon per 3 gallons) and have never lost a fish or plant.

That said, the H2O2 breaks down rapidly, typically in less than 24 hours, into H2O (water) so it is doubtful if there is any left in your tank. If it were me, I would take the opportunity to do a thorough tank cleaning followed by a major (50%+) water change and then restart my tank just like it was brand new.
brand new mean: new aqua soil?? or just try to clean the old soil, which is only 3-4 month old.
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Old 01-08-2013, 05:20 PM   #19
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We could debate this for days. Sometimes you just have to pick a course of action and see what happens.

So how about this. Try vacuuming a small spot, in the back. Be as gentle as possible while still being thorough.

If it goes well and without the AS falling apart, proceed to vacuum the rest. Then perform a couple of big water changes to flush any detritus and dust out of the water column. Finally, try a new, expendable plant to see if the problem is solved.
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Old 01-08-2013, 05:25 PM   #20
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We could debate this for days. Sometimes you just have to pick a course of action and see what happens.

So how about this. Try vacuuming a small spot, in the back. Be as gentle as possible while still being thorough.

If it goes well and without the AS falling apart, proceed to vacuum the rest. Then perform a couple of big water changes to flush any detritus and dust out of the water column. Finally, try a new, expendable plant to see if the problem is solved.

sounds good, either way its gona be hard to work with because its a winter and slow everywhere, otherwise it would be much easier, lets hope it goes well.
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Old 01-08-2013, 06:28 PM   #21
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First off, light is NOT required to break down hydrogen peroxide. Pretty much any contaminant will begin the decomposition process, and it will do so very rapidly under the conditions in our fish tanks. Secondly, bacteria are quite resistant to peroxide. Essentially all aerobic bacteria contain an enzyme called catalase that decomposes peroxide in order to utilize the oxygen, and is able to do this at relatively high concentrations. I've seen studies showing that bacterial growth stops around 300 mg/L, but I don't remember what concentration is required at what length of time to completely kill it. So assuming you dumped a liter of peroxide at 3%, you should be fine with a tank of at least 30 gallons (as far as bacteria goes). There may be a lag time for the bacteria to recover, but I doubt the tank has been sterilized.
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Old 01-08-2013, 07:33 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by funkman262 View Post
First off, light is NOT required to break down hydrogen peroxide. Pretty much any contaminant will begin the decomposition process, and it will do so very rapidly under the conditions in our fish tanks. Secondly, bacteria are quite resistant to peroxide. Essentially all aerobic bacteria contain an enzyme called catalase that decomposes peroxide in order to utilize the oxygen, and is able to do this at relatively high concentrations. I've seen studies showing that bacterial growth stops around 300 mg/L, but I don't remember what concentration is required at what length of time to completely kill it. So assuming you dumped a liter of peroxide at 3%, you should be fine with a tank of at least 30 gallons (as far as bacteria goes). There may be a lag time for the bacteria to recover, but I doubt the tank has been sterilized.
"bacteria are quite resistant to peroxide" ???
3% topical peroxide is ok for tank use and very easy to find almost everywhere. 10ml/g treatment is a dosing used to kill algea and practically all waterborne bacteria and parasites, protazoans, etc. I use it often and to good result.

35% perox-aid is FDA approved for aquaculture.
Here's just a few of the linked papers I have saved from looking into materials for use in treatment and quarantine.

http://iai.asm.org/content/70/9/5202...urcetype=HWFIG

http://www.drugs.com/vet/35-perox-aid.html

http://www.umesc.usgs.gov/aquatic/fish_culture9.html

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/1...675992#preview

http://www.fws.gov/fisheries/aadap/P...%2024apr08.pdf

FWS.gov quote:target concentration of 150 mg per L active H2O2 after several moribund fish from the tank were presumptively diagnosed with external columnaris.
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Old 01-08-2013, 08:37 PM   #23
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"bacteria are quite resistant to peroxide" ???
Yes, aerobic bacteria can be resistant to peroxide (as I already discussed)...
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Old 01-08-2013, 09:11 PM   #24
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The only ones not affected, (as you posted), are the ones with the enzyme catalase.
That said they are few in number respectively as it relates to freshwater aquariums.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/sh...1&postcount=25
Considering the poster only dosed to 6ml/g and reported an ammonia spike shortly after I would think the enzyme is lacking from the bactors we prefer to protect in our tanks so caution dosing H2O2 has some merit I think.

I wouldn't consider all aerobic bacteria to be protected,
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Old 01-08-2013, 09:54 PM   #25
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Catalase is produced by virtually ALL aerobic bacteria, and I'm hoping that you realize that the nitrifying bacteria within our aquaria ARE in fact aerobic. It is also known that the specific bacteria in our aquaria, such as nitrosomonas, do produce that enzyme. Thank you though for that single data point that entirely proves your point. It must be impossible that the poster in that link dosed the peroxide too close to the filter intake so that the peroxide entered the filter at a barely diluted concentration (in other words, much greater than the 6 mL per gallon of 3% peroxide or 50 mg/L after COMPLETELY mixing with all of the tank water) thus being much greater than can be tolerated by the bacteria (yes, even those that produce catalase).
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Old 01-09-2013, 04:16 AM   #26
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my last guess is anaerobic converting any of the sulfates (potassium sulfate, gh booster etc) i dose in my tank into sulfide, sulfide stunt the plants and kill them.

the gravel vacuum is working fine and i was able to collect lot of dirt. am going to clean it more tomorrow. hopefully this will get rid of the anaerobic.
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Old 01-09-2013, 04:35 AM   #27
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I have shot small amounts into aqua soil on the front panel of my tank. However I did not exceed 2 ml per gallon. I use aqua soil and would never think to use a gravel vac.i would think every time you stick it into the substrate your pulverizing it. If it were me I would use my fingers to drag through the material and use the vac as a siphon to get rid of the cloud of dust, but never having it indirect contact.

I missed the size of this tank.
If it were small tank less than say. a 55 gallon I would just replace it.

Best of luck

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:36 PM   #28
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I have shot small amounts into aqua soil on the front panel of my tank. However I did not exceed 2 ml per gallon. I use aqua soil and would never think to use a gravel vac.i would think every time you stick it into the substrate your pulverizing it. If it were me I would use my fingers to drag through the material and use the vac as a siphon to get rid of the cloud of dust, but never having it indirect contact.

I missed the size of this tank.
If it were small tank less than say. a 55 gallon I would just replace it.

Best of luck

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
my tank is 90-p ADA which is around 48g.
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Old 01-09-2013, 03:01 PM   #29
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to cobra, aqua soil is loaded with organics, it is not inert, nor inorganic
its basically fired dirt IMO.

that being said even if it absorbed the h202, it would break down over time. i think the root cause to melted plants is as some have interpretted.
dead bacteria, = ammonia. too much ammonia can melt a plant

carefully done gravel vac's on aqua soil are OKAY. don't just ram it into the susbrate, but gently wiggle it around, it'll do the job, aquasoil is light and is easily fluffed around by the siphon
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Old 01-09-2013, 05:29 PM   #30
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to cobra, aqua soil is loaded with organics, it is not inert, nor inorganic
its basically fired dirt IMO.

that being said even if it absorbed the h202, it would break down over time. i think the root cause to melted plants is as some have interpretted.
dead bacteria, = ammonia. too much ammonia can melt a plant

carefully done gravel vac's on aqua soil are OKAY. don't just ram it into the susbrate, but gently wiggle it around, it'll do the job, aquasoil is light and is easily fluffed around by the siphon
i know ammonia can melt plants, but it has to be in higher levels, if we think about it, when setting up a aqua soil tank, people add lots of plants without any melting etc.

i know ada soil will break down sooner or later, but i don't want to waste my time on plants if they are going to die, i think i might look into buying more aqua soil and restart everything.
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