AlgaeFix: Experiences, Experiments, and Thoughts

[plantbrain]

Originally Posted by DarkCobra

1) Busan 77 affects algae by causing their cells to absorb water until they burst.
2) It affects animal gills by disrupting O2 exchange in the cells.

Both of which are well documented, no stretches or assumptions on my part.

Without any concentration mentioned, it does make a big difference and specifically to say trout vs say a warm water fish.

Take NO3 for example, it's very toxic to trout fry, but to guppies? Tetras?
I also made mention of selectivity to shrimp vs fish, both have gills but shrimp are far more sensitive to the product as labeled.

This is about all I know.

Then you've had atypical results. It only takes a quick Google search to easily find dozens, if not hundreds of people who've had great results with AlgaeFix on green water.

I tried it 2x, did not work. Broke out the UV.
Green water might be milder perhaps, or higher light in the tank I had might be the cause, if it "works", it should work for most everyone. Several other hobbyists I know tried it and failed, does not work on GDA BTW.

Rapid fish death, with symptoms of respiratory distress, is also an atypical result. Still, it does happen, regardless of whether you personally have witnessed it or not.

I have elephant noses which are certainly by any experienced fish keeper's experiences, some of the more touchy species. In the cases where fish issues did occur that I read off the web, the aquarist had other issues and did not take good care of the tank to begin with. Most of the people agreed on those post with that assessment. I watched the fish closely. I saw some evidence perhaps of the fish not liking it.

But...........for a few hours, the same cannot be said for CO2 gas enrichment. That causes stress as well. Lots more death and risk associated there than a one time treatment here or there with algaefix for hair algae.
Green water? There's are a few different non chemical ways to get rid of that.

Hair algae? Much tougher.

So the issue is highly specific and the dose treatment is relatively brief.
So not many folks will have many issues I would reason.

Shrimp folks? Oh yea. They would not be happy.
I got plenty of RCS to torture and kill.

Now while I didn't make the particular "huge stretch" you previously claimed, I admit I have made a stretch in presuming to know the reason for these rapid fish deaths. I have only tenuous documentation in my favor, and a few experiments.

Well, I'm not sure, I can only say what I've seen.
The fish I have did not die or appear overly stressed near as I could tell.
This is about 700-1000 fish total.
So quite a few, maybe 20-25 species.

What I read on line suggested user errors and care more than the product itself.

If I'm wrong, then nothing whatsoever is lost by splitting AlgaeFix into smaller, more frequent doses. If I'm right, and people take my advice, it may prevent a few needless deaths; which is a definite gain.

Agreed. I tried 1/2 doses split for 2 days. Same result with hair algae, but, still killed shrimp some. No difference with fish.

I'm not certain if the % mortality with the shrimp was similar vs full dose.
Did not do a count for the 1/2 dose treatment and I only did one treatment like that.

I'll likely keep doing the 2 day 1/2 dose method if need be in the future.

I think the utility is your advice is reduced shrimp mortality. While people seek to reduce fish stress, I think 1-2 days of mild stress is not going to be a big issue for most.

Shrimp deaths? Well.........that is a deal breaker for most.
Still, not a bad selling point: less stress to fish.

Good either way.

Yet I've waited two years to write up this information. Between my own uncertainty, and those who seem to feel the need to discredit any new idea, I felt it likely that no one would end up trying it. Making both the initial write-up, and subsequently addressing misleading statements like the first I've quoted from you, an utter waste of effort.

I sincerely hope this will not be the case.

Why wait 2 years to write it up? Input, develop, hone, improve, address questions etc. Dosing 1/2 doses is a new idea? Would you want me to agree with EVERYTHING you say?

Hehe, come on. If the idea is good, it will easily stand up on it's own .......and anyone with any common logic will go "okay, that's correct(or not)".

Maybe I need to go back and run a few more runs with the product and look specifically are respiration rates, or try it on green water a few times more. I see value in those comments.

I've looked up many toxicity reports on my own, looking to find evidence that either supports or refutes my own hypothesis. And I found them insufficient, because they all lack a key piece of information.

They do tell us that a certain amount of Busan 77, constant over a period of a few days (or weeks), was lethal to 50% of the test species.

They don't tell us when within that test period the fish died.

They should have a mortality curve somewhere in the data. Mortality vs time/dose(concentration vs time). A regression curve etc. Extrapolated etc.

It would be unusual for a published data NOT to have this information in the full paper.

The issue for us is the time frame, and the binding with soil(ADA AS, MTS etc). We dose a smaller amount and then have these other things that bind it rapidly. Then water changes and a cocktail soup of ferts, CO2 etc, plants and uptake by them......And it's not an easy test to measure Busan 77 in tank water.

I can do this for H2O2 or Glutaraldehyde.

If, for example, the death rate were observed only to rise over time and particularly at the end, then this suggests only chronic toxicity is a factor.
But if there is also a distinct peak at the beginning, then this could support my hypothesis of respiratory distress, caused by a sudden increase in the amount of chemical.

Now if you can provide any report that includes this information, that would be truly useful.

I'll find a mortality vs time curve for you.

Some day I'll do the time vs Glut decay. If you'd like, I can ship the Glut test kit I have here as a spare. The only requirement is that you document and share the info. I will not be doing it for at least 4-5 more months.

[vnghost]

i admit i didnt read the whole conversation but if it helps, i used algaefix at half doses with no ill effects on fish, shrimp, or snails. i dosed twice in one week at half doses in a 8 gallon tank. i sent the rest of the unused bottle to my cousin stationed in japan for his really bad case of green water in his 90 gallon tank. i told him only dose half, green water cleared within 2 days and his fish are all fine.

[13B-RX3]

I noticed after dose two that very little additional Algae was removed if any. Maybe the smaller doses spread out is more effective. Rather than a third dose i did another water change and added fauna. Hopefully the changes i made will keep it at bay!

[DarkCobra]

Originally Posted by plantbrain

Without any concentration mentioned, it does make a big difference and specifically to say trout vs say a warm water fish.

Take NO3 for example, it's very toxic to trout fry, but to guppies? Tetras?
I also made mention of selectivity to shrimp vs fish, both have gills but shrimp are far more sensitive to the product as labeled.

This is about all I know.

For chronic exposure or toxicity, I agree. Impossible to predict how any particular species will react other than generalizations. Does anyone even know exact how it kills when overdosed? I did find some papers saying long-term exposure to surfactants reduced viability of gill tissue, but these were not specific to Busan 77.

Originally Posted by plantbrain

I tried it 2x, did not work. Broke out the UV.
Green water might be milder perhaps, or higher light in the tank I had might be the cause, if it "works", it should work for most everyone. Several other hobbyists I know tried it and failed, does not work on GDA BTW.

That is weird. Normally it has visible effect within hours, and many would consider green water to be the thing it's most effective for. There has to be some particular reason it didn't work in these case, rather than it just being generally ineffective, though I don't know what it would be. Carbon? Purigen? UV? PH? My success was in a low tech tank with none of those. No CO2. GH=1, KH=8, PH=~8.2.

Originally Posted by plantbrain

Agreed. I tried 1/2 doses split for 2 days. Same result with hair algae, but, still killed shrimp some. No difference with fish.
<<<snipped by DarkCobra to merge related paragraphs>>>
I think the utility is your advice is reduced shrimp mortality. While people seek to reduce fish stress, I think 1-2 days of mild stress is not going to be a big issue for most.

Mmm, no. Seems like what you're suggesting is to use a smaller dose, when it will still get the job done, instead of using the full dose as directed on the bottle. Which is certainly sage advice.

But what I'm suggesting is that if someone plans to use the full dose anyway (for example against resistant algae), then each full dose should be broken up into smaller doses, spaced hours apart; as a precaution only against the respiratory distress some have observed. I have not tested this on shrimp, nor do I plan to - at any dose. Toxicity due to constant exposure of a particular level, and respiratory distress due to a sharp increase, are two completely separate effects in my opinion. My method is intended only for the latter, shrimp will still suffer the toxic effect.

Originally Posted by plantbrain

I'll find a mortality vs time curve for you.

That would be great.

Originally Posted by plantbrain

Some day I'll do the time vs Glut decay. If you'd like, I can ship the Glut test kit I have here as a spare. The only requirement is that you document and share the info. I will not be doing it for at least 4-5 more months.

That too would be great. I'd love to know typical decay rates for aquariums, the few I've seen are for outdoor environments. I have five tanks at my disposal for it with various setups, and will happily document glutaraldehyde decay rates in as many situations as the kit will allow. I'll PM my address to you, and should you decide to send it, let me know if there's any particular tests, conditions, or procedures you want followed.

[penpal]

I've had good results with Algaefix even with higher dosage. I had some bushy clado for a long long time in my tank that I could never get rid of it so I finally gave in and used it. I dosed the recommended amount EVERYDAY for a week and there was no ill effects on the fish or the plants. The discus, otos, and rams were all fine, didn't lose a single one. The clado though was pretty much all dead by the third day, I just wanted to make sure I got it all.

A side note, doesn't dead/dying algae release ammonia? if you had a ton of dying/dead algae like green water would that not cause a spike and in turn kill your fish.

[jester56]

I apologize if this has been mentioned already. But Chad started a very good thread on AlgaeFix and mosses. It gathered other good info as it rolled along.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/sh...452&highlight=

[plantbrain]

AMPS has a few studies:

http://www.apms.org/japm/vol43/v43p100.pdf

This one is good because it shows how ineffective Barley straw is, when back in the day, everyone was claiming it worked. It does show that the selectivity is different among BGA(and the genus that pesters us) and green algae. Economics are not a factor for chemical use for aquarist however.

[jester56]

I dosed AlgaeFix a few times in my 50 with no obvious ill effects. Tonight, I went poking around to make sure all was well. It was, with one exception. One of my moss balls was looking like it was filtering all the dirt in the tank. I picked it up and found that there were brown spots on it and the bottom was almost all brown. Probably should have taken them out before dosing.

[DarkCobra]

I decided to perform one more test. This time taking a bigger risk by doing it in my main tank with more diverse population, instead of smaller ones. It's a 46G, high light and heavily planted, with 30ppm CO2.

A bit of staghorn, mostly on old and deteriorating vesuvius sword leaves that should be removed anyway; a little more on lower light plants that got too much light and flow. I'll be interested to see the effect (and will definitely trim the plants later). But this is primarily to validate my earlier results in regards to the suspected respiratory effects of AlgaeFix; and the utility of using smaller, more frequent doses to give fish time to adapt.

I removed the bamboo shrimp and Marimo balls. Remaining livestock is guppies, swordtails, cories, neons, otos, cherry barbs, many red ramshorn snails, a golden loach, and a juvenile Ryukin.


2013-01-13:

4:00pm: Measured out a full dose of AlgaeFix as recommended on the bottle, 4ml. The plan is to add it 25% at a time, with three hours between each fractional dose. Added first fractional dose with a dropper, 1ml.

7:00pm: No adverse effects observed, added another 1ml.

7:15pm: Almost all guppies now staying at surface of water, some gulping air. Clear respiratory distress. CO2 is still 30ppm, oxygenation should be fine since I'm already seeing heavy pearling. Also, the swordtails are hiding. Did not see this in any of my previous tests, with fractional doses spaced further apart. Too much, too fast?

8:00pm: Quick recovery. Most guppies and swordtails now behaving normally. But one guppy is looking worse.

10:00pm: All now behaving normally except that one guppy, which is now having severe trouble maintaining normal orientation and buoyancy. It seems to want to stay at the surface, but it only goes periodically in bursts of effort; then soon sinks back down. This is a known weak strain, I previously lost two of its siblings due to a 70% water change. I hate to abort the test on account of this. I also hate to lose this guppy as it's extraordinarily beautiful. So as a compromise, instead of adding the next fractional dose, I turned off CO2, redirected wavemaker to water surface to more quickly reduce the level, and called it a night.


2013-01-14:

2:00pm: Turned CO2 back on, and returned wavemaker to normal orientation.

4:00pm: Lights on. The guppy has seemingly made a full recovery and adapted; it just took extra time, plus a reprieve from CO2 to help it past the crisis. Knocked on wood, and continued with the test. Added fractional dose #3 of 4. The staghorn looks very slightly diminished, could be my imagination. But also see some fish picking at it, which doesn't normally happen.

7:00pm: No adverse effects. Added final fractional dose.

1:00am: Lights out. No adverse effects seen at any time today.


Conclusions:

Well.. It didn't go exactly as planned. Respiratory distress occurred, despite spacing the fractional doses by what I thought was an adequate amount of time.

It seemed to be species specific. Only the guppies and swordtails were affected. Basically, all the livebearers. None of the egglayers were visibly affected, even the scaleless ones normally considered sensitive.

Had I dosed the entire amount at once, I expect the instantaneous stress would have been enough that I'd need to abort entirely with a large water change to prevent many deaths, maybe losing some anyway. And then my lady probably would have killed me, too. Dosing fractionally saves lives!

Will take a few more days to see the effects on algae. I'll post a follow-up with that, and anything else that might occur.

[DarkCobra]

And the follow-up.

Weekly water change and trimming performed.

Staghorn was slightly reduced. I didn't expect much, since its a red algae like BBA, which is considered resistant to AlgaeFix.

The guppy that was severely affected continues to do well, apparently no worse for the wear.

But another guppy that took longer to stop gulping at the surface than most has developed dropsy. This is an extremely rare occurrence in my tank keeping history, so it's hard to write this off as coincidental. It's currently being treated with Kanamycin medicated flake.

[aokashi]

Sorry if I missed it. but has anyone tested PH before adding and after adding the stuff?

[Fishmommy]

I wish I had googled before I used AlgaeFix. I killed about 10 fish with it using the full dosage.
I have continued using it at half dosage but the fish seem to dislike it (you can tell when they taste it in the water they go crazy) and it doesn't get rid of the ugly black algaes in my experience. I am thinking of throwing in the towel on this chemical band-aid.

[puopg]

Originally Posted by Fishmommy

I wish I had googled before I used AlgaeFix. I killed about 10 fish with it using the full dosage.
I have continued using it at half dosage but the fish seem to dislike it (you can tell when they taste it in the water they go crazy) and it doesn't get rid of the ugly black algaes in my experience. I am thinking of throwing in the towel on this chemical band-aid.

Sorry to hear man. I used reccomended as well, but i didn't get any fish loss. Not even my inverts died. And yea, red algaes like BBA arent affected at all. It works well against green algaes like spiro and clado.

[ckraft]

I've used it without adverse effect on fish and not too much effect on algae. I wonder if the different experiences might be due to dissolved substances in the water, either hardness or TDS. My water is rather hard, 55 GH, 12 KH, and about 1000 ppm TDS, If AlgaeFix does work by making the algae cell membrane leaky, then the higher osmotic tension of my water might make it less effective.

I've recently used it against chara in an outdoor container, the chara had a setback but returned as if nothing had happened. I need to try periodic repeat treatments, I guess.

[jester56]

I use it once in a while. I have a fifty with java fern, swords, giant red royals, hc, anubias and others. I have two gouramis and ten black longfin tetras.





After reading the extensive information on this subject, I picked up the Frankenstein, "Fire Bad!" operating principle. The bad boy of the algae killers seems to be anything copper. It is indiscriminate in flora or fauna. The AlgaeFix does not have that. I go by the bottle dosage - for my 50... One teaspoon. I measure the exact amount and slowly drizzle, (as much as you can drizzle a teaspoon), it right into the spray bar flow. IMHO, the key is following the instructions to the letter.

I watch the fish close with them showing no excitability or stress. The water gets white-smoky for an hour or two, and clears. It puts a pretty good slap on the "easy" algae. BBA I have to either cut the affected leaf or remove the rock and scrub the Hell out of it. I do all this in separate combination of the 1-2 Punch. There always seems to be SOME small bit of algae. But it's maintenance that makes it easier to deal with.