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Old 09-28-2012, 05:51 PM   #16
DogFish
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OK lets try again.

I use it as a last resort if I think the plant is about to die. Think shocking a heart with defib paddles. At that point you have nothing to loose.

Putting an Aquatic plant in damp towels in the veggie drawer with slow down the metabolic activity i.e., and allow for some time for the cells to absorb the Boric Acid of the rooting hormone.

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Old 09-28-2012, 06:23 PM   #17
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I've used it a few times and did some fairly basic test in the past.
Never found it helped vs the stems that were not treated.

Good for some terrestrial species, aquatic just a rooting machines as it is.
Why? They have to be, they get washed away, they must transport lots of O2 to the root zones etc(far more than terrestrial counter parts).

Their own endogenous abilities with plant growth regulators does the trick. I do not think they need more encouragement.

Dr Kane at UF and FAN also have little support for the rooting plnt growth regulators, Gibberillians perhaps for flowering, but most aquatics do not respond like the terrestrials.
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Old 09-28-2012, 07:39 PM   #18
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well, i dont like to rely on what people speculate. so im testing it.
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Old 09-28-2012, 08:56 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by auban View Post
well, i dont like to rely on what people speculate. so im testing it.
So if you test, make sure to dip each stem and then another set without the treatment.

Keep one group on one side of the tank, then he other on the other side ideally.
Then take 1 stem out each day and inspect the roots/amount of growth etc.

If you cannot tell a difference visually after 1-2 weeks..........
The other thing is to be specific about which plant species are affect/are not etc.

While we lie to suggest we tested it, basically most are just tossing it in and praying. Which is very little testing and a lot more speculating.

Some simple things can help answer some questions.

Super Thrive has been used for years and years for planted tanks, but no one has shown any difference. It also has the same plant growth regulators as most rooting hormone mixes like "Miracle Grow rooting hormone". It does not cost that much to fiddle with, but PGR's really do not offer much utility for aquarium hobbyist.

Even if they did, you still need to address the basic building blocks of growth, light/CO2/nutrient sot amplify growth and get different allocation patterns, you do not get something from nothing by adding them. It just changes resource allocation.

Since we only really focus on growing stems and asexual clonal parts, we really are not interested in growing more roots or flowers/fruits etc.
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Old 09-28-2012, 09:08 PM   #20
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im already growing it. i simply dissolved the rooting hormone powder in water and added it to the tank. ill set up another one as a control. if i notice a huge difference, i will test it again.

it may work in larger than normal doses. i added the powder last night and it has already cleared up some, most of the powder has stuck to everything in the tank. since indole-3-butyric acid is not water soluble, i imagine most of it is bound to the powder base.

the only benefit it would have that i can see is to promote new roots to grow. these pieces took about ten days to develop a few roots while floating in water under bright lights. for the most part, i clipped the parts of the stems of that had roots, so any root growth now is going to be new.

i have noticed that the greater the root system on both of the species i used, the faster they grow in general. makes sense.
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Old 09-28-2012, 09:14 PM   #21
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i just looked up superthrive. it uses a different hormone.
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Old 12-07-2012, 02:06 AM   #22
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well, i didnt see any difference between the tank with the hormone and the tank without it. i guess thats not really surprising. had to try it though.
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Old 12-07-2012, 11:35 AM   #23
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10 days is a long time for roots. I usually have decent starter roots on my plants in 1-2 days from trimmings in my tanj
3x4 days from someone elses.. like tom said aquatic plants root fast when given everything they need
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Old 12-07-2012, 12:00 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by auban View Post
well, i didnt see any difference between the tank with the hormone and the tank without it. i guess thats not really surprising. had to try it though.
Which PGR where you using and at what concentration, I have done extensive tests on PGRs (over 16 of then) some auxins and kinetinins in the correct ratio will have a positive effect, but in my experiments the control environment did just fine. Super thrive uses NAA which oddly so is a very untestable PGR. I spent 3 months running my tests and over 2k on PGRs and equipment. I posted some of my findings at the barrreport.com. I am continuing to test PGRs at specific ratios, etc, I am seeing their effects on aquatic weeds and algae, but as of now I have found them of very little value to the hobby. If you want your cryps to flower, I can help with that. Heck if you want gloss to flower emerged I can help with that as well


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Old 12-07-2012, 12:14 PM   #25
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Another one of those great science project ideas for a student.

I don't believe there is a valid argument that using Root Hormone doesn't work when used as designed.

There is a valid point about how necessary it is.

It's not unlike fuel additives for your car. You car will run fine on regular gasoline, better with a fuel additive. Will you notice the difference and is the difference worth the effort to you are the questions.

The more I'm involved with cloning in Aquaponics the more value I see in using Root Hormone. Is it need for the average Aquatic Stem Weed, probably not.
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:06 PM   #26
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I do agree with you, when ever cloning plants you certainly will benefit heavily from PGRs. They gave a purpose! I just don't believe they are for the hobby as a mass, certain individuals will benefit for sure, I'll continue using them because I have a 10 year supply


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Old 12-13-2012, 03:15 AM   #27
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i really dont know the dosage. the rooting hormone i used was indole-3-butyric acid, and i tested it on rotala indica. i used one teaspoon per 5 gallon tank, but i have no idea how much hormone actually made it into the water and to the plant. all i know is that powdered root hormone with indole-3-butyric acid doesnt do anything for rotala indica when added at one teaspoon per 5 gallons. i may need more, but i have begun taking on other projects that are more to my liking, so the tanks are currently in use for something else. maybe ill get back to it someday.
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Old 12-13-2012, 04:02 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by auban View Post
well, i didnt see any difference between the tank with the hormone and the tank without it. i guess thats not really surprising. had to try it though.
So what would you tell the next person who posed the same question then?
Old saying: "it is good to learn from experience, as long as it's not your own."
Folks make mistakes, and that is how we learn(well, some of us anyhow).

I think you and other hobbyists would be much better served focusing on CO2 and light. Seriously.

Aquatic weeds have few other allocation properties other than biomass vegetative growth. This means the basic building blocks of growth are the limiting factor(light, temp, current, cO2, ferts), not adding more external PGR's.

PGR's mostly just change the allocation of resources. They do not magically make plants grow faster. Many folks, not just in the hobby, seem to have a real issue with understanding that concept.

Aquatic weeds also have the option/ability (so do terrestrial plants also if you use fertigation) to take in ferts from the water column, and the roots serve mostly as anchors/storage organs or as a back up if the water column is removed or becomes limiting.

Cedergreen and Madsen's paper(2001) even trimmed off the roots entirely and the plants had the exact same rates of growth in a nutrient rich water column. A very good paper for those interested in aquatic plant regulation and resource allocation.

Cloning, TC etc, then sure, but that's a very different goal and approach.
Folks muddle the two with aquatic plants and these other applications.
Good news is they do not cost much for many of the things. I've yet to meet a single person who reported any difference, it's been a good 15-20 years of looking.

Odds are not good or in anyone's favor.
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:45 PM   #29
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I fully agree with Tom. However IBA needs to be dissolved on hydrochloric acid (hci) before its mixed with water. And if your powder was 100% or near 100% you will need a concentration of .0001 pm to .01 ppm to further complicate the issue you need to use a ratio of kinetinins and auxins to get any real results, but not in a weed, you will see results in a higher plant. Also some PGRs are used as weed killers. All PGRs are doing is overwriting nature, the presence of them provokes a response from the plant. A lot of the plants in our hobby are weeds and do fine on their own. Back to Toms point, I do not think there really is a value for these PGRs in the hobby, unless you are doing your own advanced propagation. That being said, I have seen interesting results on cryps, Anubias, bucephelandra, and glossoClick image for larger version

Name:	ImageUploadedByTapatalk1355405923.311468.jpg
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ID:	58829 as you can see its very leggy, this plant started with 4 leaves and 1/4 inch of roots 6 days later I had what you see in the picture, however regardless of light and co2 I was never able to get these plants to carpet, where they carpeted with no issue with out the PGRs. Click image for larger version

Name:	ImageUploadedByTapatalk1355406264.623783.jpg
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ID:	58830 Above are some of test tanks.


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Old 12-13-2012, 03:48 PM   #30
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Gibbing the Crypts will help with flowering IME.
For many that do emergent growth, the PGR's are go for that.

2,4,D is a classic synthetic PGR herbicide(auxin).
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