BarrReport post i wanted to share - Page 2
Planted Tank Forums
Your Tanks Image Hosting *Tank Tracker * Plant Profiles Fish Profiles Planted Tank Guide Photo Gallery Articles

Go Back   The Planted Tank Forum > Specific Aspects of a Planted Tank > Fertilizers and Water Parameters


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-28-2012, 04:17 PM   #16
plantbrain
Planted Tank Guru
 
plantbrain's Avatar
 
PTrader: (255/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The swamp
Posts: 13,247
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronT View Post
More frequent water changes also helps to keep algae spores at bay.

Every tank I've seen that has an auto water change system is more forgiving and the plants grow like mad.
I have one client who has about 10% per day done on automation, generally about 1 hour after the lights come on, then doses CO2 and Excel....as a back up.

The Dosing tanks are 2 x 5 gallons and then 2 x 2.5 Gal back ups.
Carbon block for the tap.

This system has run for about 2 years now.

I come about once every 4-6 months and trim the tank. It's never had any algae issues nor was cleaned. Just fed the fish, algae magnet the front glass once every month or so.

Not bad.

I tend to do my water changes large and frequent in the morning maybe 1 hour after the lights come on. Add ferts back right away etc.
Mad pearling later at night.

This pearling is not on the glass, heater or any other equipment/non live material.
I can easily fluff the bubbles off about 1 hour after the water change and they do not come back(these are degassing bubbles due to high pressure and temp).
At higher pressure and lower temp, the CO2 is higher than at ambient.

If you take this tap water and let it sit for a few minutes, warm up and depressurize........ the CO2 and O2 will escape.
Same for the aquarium.

I think perhaps Ole's work with gas films might apply a bit, it would increase the rates. If you doubt that water changes influence growth rates in your aquarium: a simple test: do water changes daily about 1 hour after the lights come on, say 40-50%. Do this for 1-2 weeks and then do do ANY for 1-2 weeks. See what you think. One day may be hard to tell the differences.

O2 meter does not lie as far as plant growth near the end of the day. It's always higher the day of the water change.
Since I do the water change early on, then 6-7 hours later, the O2 reading is taken.........a direct relationship with the tap is not likely, I also have wet/dry filters which should remove some of the excesses/degassing from the tap, leaving mostly only plant growth production left.

7. Bacterial and periphyton films. As these are exposed to air during the water changes, or high rates of micro bubbles and dissolved air/gases etc..........the bubbles will adhere. They will provide these films with brief high levels of O2, increasing respiration. Some of the surface tension will stick and pull off a lot of these films on plant leaves....... leaving a cleaner plant leaf behind. In the next few hours, the leaves will be recolonized again. This reduces the barrier and increases the Flux across the leaf for nutrients and CO2, light etc.

This may tie into the CO2 mist Hypothesis effect, the mist itself may be doing a cleaning action on the plant leaves.
A water change may also do a very similar thing.
__________________
Regards,
Tom Barr

Last edited by plantbrain; 11-28-2012 at 04:30 PM.. Reason: cuz
plantbrain is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 11-28-2012, 05:35 PM   #17
FlyingHellFish
Wannabe Guru
 
FlyingHellFish's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,847
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by houseofcards View Post
I think most advanced hobbyists can tell the difference between false pearling and true. The key is not the pearling, but is there real growth differences?
But the whole issue is HD and others are noticing excessive pearling, more so than normal. I don't think anyone going to dispute the whole algae part.

So what is in the tap water that is causing better growth compare to EI water and Co2 injection? Also keep in mind that everyone's tap water is different, I know I don't notice any difference at all but than again, I have two very small tanks.

Again, the main question is :

What variable are we missing out? If we're providing all of our plant's need, what is missing. Let me know so I can run out and buy it.
FlyingHellFish is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2012, 05:56 PM   #18
HD Blazingwolf
Planted Tank Guru
 
HD Blazingwolf's Avatar
 
PTrader: (8/100%)
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Posts: 4,907
Default

my tap water isnt special.. i dose fertilizers directly after my water change... but plants definitely grow better that day, and they do pearl significantly more that day vs other days


similarly i also have a wet/dry. so oxygen levels and co2 are kept pretty stable day after day.

i wonder if we drain tank water in a bucket every day, and then fill it back up with the same water if it would have the same effect????
__________________
HD Blazingwolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2012, 07:25 PM   #19
micheljq
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
micheljq's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Quebec
Posts: 490
Default

If I may add this : Takashi Amano does a lot of water changes. I have 2 of his books, he does 50%, sometimes 33% water changes in all of his aquariums, but mostly 50% wc each week.

As for myself, I do not do a lot of water changes, I am too lazy. I have a planted 7 gallons, with one 33% wc each 2 months, I do not have algae issues with it.
__________________
Newbie with plants, Quebec.
micheljq is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2012, 07:30 PM   #20
houseofcards
Planted Tank Guru
 
houseofcards's Avatar
 
PTrader: (54/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 2,570
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by micheljq View Post
If I may add this : Takashi Amano does a lot of water changes. I have 2 of his books, he does 50%, sometimes 33% water changes in all of his aquariums, but mostly 50% wc each week.

As for myself, I do not do a lot of water changes, I am too lazy. I have a planted 7 gallons, with one 33% wc each 2 months, I do not have algae issues with it.
Whether it's EI or ADA (Amano) the water change is part of the overall system. Anyone can have a tank free of algae without a water change the point is it's usually a limited system. Regular water changes increase the range of light, plants, scape, etc. It allows more 'mistakes' we all do them. It becomes a more forgiving system.
houseofcards is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2012, 08:02 PM   #21
plantbrain
Planted Tank Guru
 
plantbrain's Avatar
 
PTrader: (255/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The swamp
Posts: 13,247
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HD Blazingwolf View Post
my tap water isnt special.. i dose fertilizers directly after my water change... but plants definitely grow better that day, and they do pearl significantly more that day vs other days


similarly i also have a wet/dry. so oxygen levels and co2 are kept pretty stable day after day.

i wonder if we drain tank water in a bucket every day, and then fill it back up with the same water if it would have the same effect????
Probably.

But you expose the plants to air, and like sponges.....they will take up a lot more air and CO2 than we think, many tidal places have excellent plant growth both marine and freshwater tidal locations.

Those places get 2x a day water changes and exposures.

And we have excellent plant growth in those same places.
__________________
Regards,
Tom Barr
plantbrain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2012, 08:06 PM   #22
HD Blazingwolf
Planted Tank Guru
 
HD Blazingwolf's Avatar
 
PTrader: (8/100%)
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Posts: 4,907
Default

This is a good experiment then!!!!
FOR SCIENCE!!!

ur probably right, its due to being exposed to air.
i so badly wanna think that they just like clean water though... maybe just cause i like water change day so much
__________________
HD Blazingwolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2012, 12:27 AM   #23
houseofcards
Planted Tank Guru
 
houseofcards's Avatar
 
PTrader: (54/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 2,570
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by HD Blazingwolf View Post
This is a good experiment then!!!!
FOR SCIENCE!!!

ur probably right, its due to being exposed to air.
i so badly wanna think that they just like clean water though... maybe just cause i like water change day so much
Lots of magic in fresh water isn't there. Plants pearl, fish spawn, life is sustained. You don't have to hit me in the head with a brick that says "Do a water change"
houseofcards is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2012, 01:16 AM   #24
HD Blazingwolf
Planted Tank Guru
 
HD Blazingwolf's Avatar
 
PTrader: (8/100%)
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Posts: 4,907
Default

it was to be funny.... (deadpan face)
__________________
HD Blazingwolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2012, 03:01 AM   #25
plantbrain
Planted Tank Guru
 
plantbrain's Avatar
 
PTrader: (255/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The swamp
Posts: 13,247
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HD Blazingwolf View Post
This is a good experiment then!!!!
FOR SCIENCE!!!

ur probably right, its due to being exposed to air.
i so badly wanna think that they just like clean water though... maybe just cause i like water change day so much
Good way to create a myth

Even in Dupla's Optimum aquarium, while they give such data for natural systems, they also make a clear point it is impractical to continuously exchange the water and dose small amounts. And the fact of the matter is that it does not help to set things up and do so.

Swimming down the Ichetcuknee river, with a Tier 1 Spring flow, plants abound, but so does algae.

What controls the algae?
Mostly three things: light, light and light.

So even the best systems will have algae, it's just like nature though, to have a specific garden, you need to weed and select out what you like and dislike while nature tries to add it back again.
__________________
Regards,
Tom Barr
plantbrain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2012, 03:47 AM   #26
jccaclimber
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
PTrader: (5/100%)
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 751
Default

Unfortunately I don't have much to add to this, but I do think it is an interesting discussion. I too have noticed that plants seem to have their leaves out a bit more later in the day after water changes. When I switched to mainly RO water (~15% tap, sitting out for several days) I expected it to go away, but it didn't. There isn't much in my water, but the plants are exposed to air for a while and there is a ton of splashing when I put the new water in. Perhaps several of these conclusions are valid which is why removing just one doesn't stop the phenomenon?
__________________
Always curious.
jccaclimber is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2012, 04:55 AM   #27
ua hua
Planted Tank Guru
 
ua hua's Avatar
 
PTrader: (47/100%)
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 2,295
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by plantbrain View Post
I have one client who has about 10% per day done on automation, generally about 1 hour after the lights come on, then doses CO2 and Excel....as a back up.

The Dosing tanks are 2 x 5 gallons and then 2 x 2.5 Gal back ups.
Carbon block for the tap.

This system has run for about 2 years now.

I come about once every 4-6 months and trim the tank. It's never had any algae issues nor was cleaned. Just fed the fish, algae magnet the front glass once every month or so.

Not bad.

I tend to do my water changes large and frequent in the morning maybe 1 hour after the lights come on. Add ferts back right away etc.
Mad pearling later at night.

This pearling is not on the glass, heater or any other equipment/non live material.
I can easily fluff the bubbles off about 1 hour after the water change and they do not come back(these are degassing bubbles due to high pressure and temp).
At higher pressure and lower temp, the CO2 is higher than at ambient.

If you take this tap water and let it sit for a few minutes, warm up and depressurize........ the CO2 and O2 will escape.
Same for the aquarium.

I think perhaps Ole's work with gas films might apply a bit, it would increase the rates. If you doubt that water changes influence growth rates in your aquarium: a simple test: do water changes daily about 1 hour after the lights come on, say 40-50%. Do this for 1-2 weeks and then do do ANY for 1-2 weeks. See what you think. One day may be hard to tell the differences.

O2 meter does not lie as far as plant growth near the end of the day. It's always higher the day of the water change.
Since I do the water change early on, then 6-7 hours later, the O2 reading is taken.........a direct relationship with the tap is not likely, I also have wet/dry filters which should remove some of the excesses/degassing from the tap, leaving mostly only plant growth production left.

7. Bacterial and periphyton films. As these are exposed to air during the water changes, or high rates of micro bubbles and dissolved air/gases etc..........the bubbles will adhere. They will provide these films with brief high levels of O2, increasing respiration. Some of the surface tension will stick and pull off a lot of these films on plant leaves....... leaving a cleaner plant leaf behind. In the next few hours, the leaves will be recolonized again. This reduces the barrier and increases the Flux across the leaf for nutrients and CO2, light etc.

This may tie into the CO2 mist Hypothesis effect, the mist itself may be doing a cleaning action on the plant leaves.
A water change may also do a very similar thing.
That is a very interesting and thought provoking theory Tom. I really never thought of the high amounts of dissolved air/gasses adhere to surfaces and pulling off films that could/would lead to algae. Makes sense that the plants we keep(most of which are not constantly submersed) would benefit from being exposed to the air on a regular basis. The huge weekly water change has always been a part of my aquarium maintence routine, as that is what I did when I kept reef tanks and that is what my dad did 25+ years ago when he was breeding fish. People need to start to understand the importance of constantly adding clean/new water to an enclosed system.

I change the water in my tank closer to lights out because that is the only time I can do it is after the kids go to bed. I do see an increase in pearling a couple hours after water change but it's lights out about 3 hours after I get done with the water change. So is it to be expected that it would be more beneficial to do water changes early in the light cycle versus later.

The CO2 mist hypothesis is making me think about running my CO2 straight from my needle wheel back into the tank again but I can't get used to the millions of bubbles. I get a quite a few micro bubbles in the tank now just by having the reactor return pointed at the main return pump but nowhere close to when it was being fed into the tank.

Quote:
Originally Posted by houseofcards View Post
Lots of magic in fresh water isn't there. Plants pearl, fish spawn, life is sustained. You don't have to hit me in the head with a brick that says "Do a water change"
Some people you do have to hit it the head with a brick. It doesn't work just to tap people on the shoulder anymore to get their attention.
__________________
All matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death life is only a dream which is an imagination of ourselves. Bill Hicks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ua hua's 90 gal. high tech
ua hua's 5,000 gal. water garden
ua hua is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2012, 12:55 PM   #28
houseofcards
Planted Tank Guru
 
houseofcards's Avatar
 
PTrader: (54/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 2,570
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ua hua View Post
...Some people you do have to hit it the head with a brick. It doesn't work just to tap people on the shoulder anymore to get their attention.
This is very true!

Quote:
Originally Posted by HD Blazingwolf View Post
it was to be funny.... (deadpan face)
I'm actually serious. We really don't know for sure why fresh water is so beneficial. When we don't know how something is accomplished to me it's magic. There could be elements in fresh water that we can't even measure.
houseofcards is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2012, 01:29 PM   #29
micheljq
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
micheljq's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Quebec
Posts: 490
Default

Hello, there is also this article from PPS-Pro, which seems to contradict the frequent water changes thinking :

https://sites.google.com/site/aquati.../water-changes

I must say as for myself, I am not quite convinced one way or the other. Are frequent water changes really better?

This summer in my ancient apartment, i had cyanobacteria booms after water changes, maybe it was the tap water there or the fact that water was hot in the summer?

Anyway thank you for sharing this article from Barr's Report. It is very interesting.

Michel.
__________________
Newbie with plants, Quebec.

Last edited by micheljq; 11-29-2012 at 01:36 PM.. Reason: details
micheljq is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2012, 04:50 PM   #30
HD Blazingwolf
Planted Tank Guru
 
HD Blazingwolf's Avatar
 
PTrader: (8/100%)
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Posts: 4,907
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by micheljq View Post
Hello, there is also this article from PPS-Pro, which seems to contradict the frequent water changes thinking :

https://sites.google.com/site/aquati.../water-changes

I must say as for myself, I am not quite convinced one way or the other. Are frequent water changes really better?

This summer in my ancient apartment, i had cyanobacteria booms after water changes, maybe it was the tap water there or the fact that water was hot in the summer?

Anyway thank you for sharing this article from Barr's Report. It is very interesting.

Michel.

big water changes are beneficial whether its a fast growing tank with lots of fishies or a tank that is slower going. the slower growth tank however will be more forgiving in the long run
on tanks that recieve less fertilizing, feeding, have lower stocking levels and slower growth, frequent water chagnes aren't as necessary as the system is slow enough to respond to everything happening. plus not much is being added to the tank that needs to be later removed
__________________
HD Blazingwolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:10 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Planted Tank LLC 2012