Metering(needle) valves selection for our CO2 pressurized system

[oldpunk78]

Originally Posted by Bettatail

I got the one of those from the same seller. (the Harris) It had an internal leak... I hope you have better luck with that one.

[Bettatail]

Originally Posted by oldpunk78

I got the one of those from the same seller. (the Harris) It had an internal leak... I hope you have better luck with that one.

thanks!, I don't think they are from the same seller, but I will test the two that I got.
what is in picture is not a complete system, it is only the mouse solenoid with the manifold that is for a hobbyist.

And If all two of the same regs are defect, I will be in trouble, because I order the regs for a local hobbyist and will give him the actual regulator price.
It is pretty much like a group buy locally, only for two people, but I paid for the regs in advance if all two are broken, =

[oldpunk78]

Originally Posted by Bettatail

thanks!, I will test the two that I got, but what is in picture is not a complete system, it is only the mouse solenoid with the manifold that is for a hobbyist.

And If all two of the same regs are defect, I will be in trouble, because I order the regs for a local hobbyist and will give him the actual regulator price.
It is pretty much like a group buy locally, only for two people, but I paid for the regs in advance if all two are broken,

Ya, that's one thing that no one ever mentions when people suggest you build your own regulator. There is a failure rate on these things. For every 10 I buy, I have to toss out 3-4. Lately the number has been a little higher. I think the used stock is starting to bottom out a little.

[Bettatail]

it is about 30% fail rate for used regs, the chance of both of them fail is weak, but I don't have good faith on them because I had two of the same model brass regulators long time ago, all diaphragm damage.
The same model stainless steel regs that I got were good.
They are the same model of the GO, Swagelok or HOKE regulators, I am not really sure if the actual manufacture is Harris group, because I can't find it from Harris or Airproducts, and of course, it is not a Victor either.
Since it is the same model as GO, I suspect the actual manufacture is in JAPAN, just like those swagelok pressure gauges.

[oldpunk78]

I'm 99% sure Swagelok uses WIKA gauges from Germany. I also think these regs are very closely related to the Matheson 3200 series.

[Bettatail]

one more this week: finally own an ideal 54-1-11, a stainless steel 1 series metering valve,...

[Bettatail]

not be able to update the original post any more, but there is a new metering valve:

Brooks instrument NRS series metering valve
unfamiliar to the hobbyists but it is a big name in flow control devices.

Brooks instrument Extremely low flow NRS needle control valve, Model 8503, 8504, 8513, 8514.
This metering valve is the same design(non rising stem) as Parker Hannifin HR series, and same as Parker HR series, low CV for extremely low flow control.
8503, angle pattern, normal handle
8504, straight(inline) pattern, normal handle
8513, angle pattern, digital handle
8514, straight(inline) pattern, digital handle
stem type Cv.
type 6, CV: 0.052
type 5, CV: 0.017
type 4, CV: 0.0057
type 3, CV: 0.0013
type 2, CV: 0.00066
type 1, CV: 0.00029

in picture is the type 1, highest precision model, with lower CV than a Parker Hannifin H0 model(the best of Parker).
sorry about the distortion, they r cell phone pictures.

[bsmith]

Nice lookin valves. What kind of $ are they asking?

[Bettatail]

not really sure, I didn't get this valve from Brooks instruments, didn't bother to ask.

I got it as liquidated item, affordable,

[oldpunk78]

Originally Posted by bsmith

Nice lookin valves. What kind of $ are they asking?

I think we all need to remember that some of these really super awesome/precise valves cost some serious coin if you're not buying them in an auction or new old stock liquidation type situation. I'm under the assumption that the OP has done some serious research and spent countless hours looking for these things.

With that said, you really have to view this thread as tool to help you identify a valve and how well it's going to work for you. A great example of this is the Parker HR3. It's friggin awesome and I never would have figured it out for myself. It's only because Bettatail and others have spent some serious time on this.

If you're really interested in finding these valves for yourself, learn the part numbers and what they mean and preform searches every day on that one auction site. That's realistically what it takes.

[kevmo911]

Well, right now, if you're building your own rig, there are two realistic options.

The first is the economy option. The obvious choice is the AS-1200. It's a shutoff valve, and would cost you all of $12-15 shipped, new, from SMC, the manufacturer. It has its drawbacks - it's tiny (and therefore fragile), the knob is tiny (and difficult to turn in tiny increments), and in order to put anything on top of it (directly connected), you'd probably have to use both a stainless 10-32 nipple and an epoxy sealant (such as Loctite). And, you'd need a couple 10-32 to 1/8 adapters, which generally aren't available at brick-and-mortar stores. Alternatives are the Pneumadyne and Clippard manufactured valves, which are similarly priced and similarly effective. And both have optional larger handles.

The second option, which costs $10-15 more, is the Parker HR-3 valve currently available on Evilbay. It's currently the most impressive value of all the metering valves anybody has *EVER* realistically suggested for this hobby. I say "realistically suggested" because the super-precise valves are rarely, if ever, available for non-retail-prices. Not the absolute most precise valve, but close, at a fraction of the cost you'll likely ever find for a similarly-effective valve. More precise valves exist, but they're overkill, in my, and anybody else's, *honest* opinion. The HR-2, HR-1, and HR-0 valves would theoretically be more precise (theoretically because nobody here has posted their own comparison test results), as is the Hoke 1600 series valve (which I *have* tested against the HR3 and many of the other low-flow valves). In real-world applications, the HR3 blows away 90+% of the valves on the original list.

Anyway, *right now*, the HR3 is the unarguably best choice for an economical high-precision valve. In a month, or several months (whenever the current Evilbay seller runs out of stock) there will be a number of other high-precision options, especially the Swagelok S series, but also the Swagelok M, Swagelok 21/22, Ideal 1 series, and a few others. They'll cost more, and/or be harder to find. And they'll likely need adapters from 1/8 or 1/4 tubing, or 1/4 M/FNPT.

The one other thing that's really important to remember is that a valve with a large handle is far superior to a valve with a tny handle. For example, a Swagelok S-series valve, with a standard tiny handle, is functional. That same valve, however, with a vernier handle (whose most effective characteristic is not the gradients on the handle, but simply the increased diameter of the handle) is extremely precise. Why? A vernier handle circumference is 2.6 inches, while a standard handle circumference is 1.5 inches. So, a 1/2-inch turn on a vernier handle is a much smaller change than a half-inch turn on a standard handle. For this same reason, you'll see people recommending using a pair of pliers to adjust the standard needle valve on of of the generic regulator rigs (Milwaukee, Aquatek, Azoo, and clones) - it increases the functional diameter. A larger-diameter handle equals more precision, regardless of the valve. And the HR3 has a large handle, on top of its impressive precision.

That said, I'd love to get my hands on one of the Brooks valves, if only for the sake of experimentation. Most, or all, of the variants look like they'd be perfect for us ...and that digital knob looks pretty freakin' cool

[OVT]

[Bettatail]

Tested! now I am settle with the metering valve for my personal co2 system.

Takes too much turn to increase/decrease the bubble rate, miss the swagelok S series which is fast and accurate to set the bubbles. lol.
There is a problem of this metering valve though: like the Parker hannifin H2A, H3L, the brooks NRS needs higher pressure differential.
They all have the extremely small orifice and longer orifice passage(tube), so water/oil/dust can easily settled in the passage and clog the valve if the pressure differential is low. Higher pressure differential, water/oil/dust can easily be pushed through, so better to set the regulator output with higher pressure.

also, due to small orifice, need particle filters, the manual recommend a 2 micron particle filter
I guess a 7 micron particle filter is sufficient because the flow rate is about 1-2 sccm (1 bubble/second). Orifice is big enough for the 7 micron particles to pass through.

[Bettatail]

Originally Posted by OVT

nice build, but I prefer this style though,

[OVT]

Told you, Bettatail, a 100 times: I like my valve handles h o r i z o n t a l