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Old 10-10-2012, 01:54 PM   #61
Bunfoo
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I know some people say a few drops of clove oil before putting it in the freeze causes the fish to lose consciousnesses.

honestly the best way to kill something is fast, hard, and never miss. I have been in situations before that have been pretty bad and required immediate euthanasia, like when my dog escaped our house and was hit by a slow-moving truck just outside of our driveway, he was hit with just enough force to break 3 legs, several ribs, ruptured his intestines and puncture a lung. I had a relative go back in the house and bring me my gun and we ended it then and there. That dog was not going to make it and I wasn't going to make him suffer. It was messy but they only thing I could do.

I would do this with any pet that really needed it. The few times I have had to take out a fish I have just taken a heavy brick to them (for the small guys). For the bigger guys, I have used the disposal, and a blender on high (Seems bad, but they're gone in a second and don't feel a thing)

I see freezing reccomended for all kinds of animals, especially the ones deemed not "worth" taking to a vet (such as hamsters, rats, fish, etc), and as a result a LOT of small pets really suffer in the freezer. In small pets, the extremities can suffer severe frostbite before the host dies. They stop moving because it becomes painful to move muscles once they fall under a comfortable temperature.

If you have to take anything down, then it should either be at a vet, or, if you are SURE you can do it 100% properly NO chance of mistakes, at home, with a proper, quick, painless death, even if it makes you feel bad or uneasy. If you can't stand to watch it, you shouldn't try to kill it at home!
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Old 10-10-2012, 02:47 PM   #62
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As a few have said the best method for euthanasia is using clove oil. As far as decapitation goes you need to stun the fish first as nerve tissue is tolerant of anoxia, and the brain may continue to function for some time after decapitation. Now on to the OP's question as far as freezing fish. Many fish are able to cope with very low temperatures and just because a fish cannot respond to a stimulus when hypothermic does not guarantee that it cannot perceive it. I have seen it mentioned that you can place a fish in a small amount of water and add several of those CO2 tablets or alka seltzer tabs(or if you have a CO2 system) put in large quantities of CO2 but to me that seems would not be the fastest way for euthanasia. I would still go with the clove oil method as it seems to be the method that is most widely accepted as fast and humane as it can be.
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Old 10-10-2012, 02:49 PM   #63
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A quick beheading with the kitchen knife works fine with aquarium fish as live fish you would butcher for dinner.
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:57 PM   #64
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I think carbon dioxide poisoning is a very peaceful way to go. I had a very old pet rat that suddenly became paralyzed one day. The vet wouldn't put him down. I looked up on the internet and followed directions to mix a certain amount of baking soda with vinegar in an aquarium and set the rat in a little box on a towel and slowly add more and more vinegar to the tank around the box. He curled up, yawned, and went to sleep as the high level of carbon dioxide took effect and when he was unconscious I added more vinegar so that the co2 rose to a fatal level. He just went to sleep and never woke up. Very humane. I'm not sure that fish would behave the same way because they seem pretty uncomfortable when co2 rises too high in an aquarium, but a very peaceful way to put down small animals.
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:23 PM   #65
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I can't believe someone would do this - totally disgusting.
Yeah, I just about lost my breakfast. I don't even kill insects without full need (mosquitoes have it coming, IMO!) without just cause. I had one woman bring in a cat that was in kidney failure that she tried to OD with her husband's insulin to "put it out of its misery". It didn't work. We called Animal Control to handle the case after euthanizing the poor cat. I don't know if she was arrested or not. People do some really disgusting, sickening things sometimes.
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:27 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Hidden Walrus View Post
I think carbon dioxide poisoning is a very peaceful way to go. I had a very old pet rat that suddenly became paralyzed one day. The vet wouldn't put him down. I looked up on the internet and followed directions to mix a certain amount of baking soda with vinegar in an aquarium and set the rat in a little box on a towel and slowly add more and more vinegar to the tank around the box. He curled up, yawned, and went to sleep as the high level of carbon dioxide took effect and when he was unconscious I added more vinegar so that the co2 rose to a fatal level. He just went to sleep and never woke up. Very humane. I'm not sure that fish would behave the same way because they seem pretty uncomfortable when co2 rises too high in an aquarium, but a very peaceful way to put down small animals.
I'm glad you researched and figured out a more kind way to euthanize your rat, but I am really disturbed that a veterinarian would not do it for you. That seems really unconscionable. I have NEVER enjoyed euthanizing, but sometimes you take one look at a critter and know that they are in so much pain/discomfort that it truly is the kindest thing to do and have to put yourself and your qualms about taking their lives aside.
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:27 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by devilduck View Post
A quick beheading with the kitchen knife works fine with aquarium fish as live fish you would butcher for dinner.
As I stated above the brain still functions after decapitation. Watch the mouth of a fish after you decapitate and see it open and close its mouth for several minutes afterwards.
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:43 PM   #68
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When the water temps drop the metabolic rate lowers. At a certain point reduced blood flow to the brain induces coma, then the organs shut down and the the heart stops. There is no over stimulation to the nerves.(what we call pain)

I put the fish in a small bag of water in the freezer before I leave the house for the day. When I return the frozen bag & the deceased go out to the trash and life goes on.
This follows along the lines of the "shock" method and is much easier to stomach. This is a gradual temperature decrease, so the metabolism slows and so does the fish, but it is not being suffocated at the same time. What bothers me is fish being removed from the water into an uncomfortable environment and then being exposed to cold air which surely hurts as they try to breathe it. I've had frost bite before and it hurt like hell as it started to set in, stopped hurting, and then the thawing hurt like hell again. So I think that the "fish out of water, into the freezer" method is somewhat barbaric.
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:45 PM   #69
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Dogfish are a species of shark!
In my case Dog-Fish are my hobbies/passions in life. I do private human training for people that own larger bred, dominate dogs.

Koehler method was developed to get dogs ready for military for battle. The mindset at that time toward the dogs was more medieval. There wasn't much concern administrate;y if they came home or not.

"However, there is no argument in the community that negative reinforcement is an effective and HARMLESS training tool if done correctly."

If by negative re-imforcement you mean Hanging a dog, using a Prong, Choker, Zapping it with an E-collar or shaking it then your quote that's just not completely true.

At best it's acceptable depending on the "community" of training one is involved in. Hunting, Schutzhund, Civil PP, Obedience Comp. maybe, Therapy, Service dogs, Agility, no...not so much.

Now if if you might mean Negitive re-enforcement via ignoring the dog holding back praise, ball or food yes I agree and I use that approach.

As far as "Old School" I learned that way 30 yrs ago. I reject those methods as I prefer the Sirus method and that's the style I train in. I want my dogs to "excute" commands because they want to not out of fear of punishment.

Just to bring it home I've owned Catahoulas that have high pointed in Open Bays, Am. Bulldog that was Civil PP trained, Rottweiler that is retired Schutzhund dog...All have gotten TDI certs, all championed in conformation.

I hunt myself and among other this have hunted hawgs in Tn. the traditional way. I do understand the challenges with working a pack. However, all animal training is ultimately Silmulus/Responce. It's really only a matter of which stimulus you choose to present to the dog.
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Old 10-10-2012, 06:12 PM   #70
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I hunt myself and among other this have hunted hawgs in Tn. the traditional way.
Boar spear?
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Old 10-10-2012, 06:59 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DogFish View Post
If by negative reinforcement you mean hanging a dog, using a Prong, choker, zapping it with an E-collar or shaking it then your quote that's just not completely true.

At best it's acceptable depending on the "community" of training one is involved in. Hunting, Schutzhund, Civil PP, Obedience Comp. maybe, Therapy, Service dogs, Agility, no...not so much.

Now if if you might mean Negative re-enforcement via ignoring the dog holding back praise, ball or food yes I agree and I use that approach.

As far as "Old School" I learned that way 30 yrs ago. I reject those methods as I prefer the Sirus method and that's the style I train in. I want my dogs to "execute" commands because they want to not out of fear of punishment.

I hunt myself and among other this have hunted hawgs in Tn. the traditional way. I do understand the challenges with working a pack. However, all animal training is ultimately Stimulus/Response. It's really only a matter of which stimulus you choose to present to the dog.
Someone who knows what he's talking about!

I don't train my dogs to execute commands because they're fearful of what may happen when they don't, they execute commands because they receive praise and positive reinforcement. Most of them want to obey of their own free will, not because they're afraid I'll punish them.

I am not referring to prongs, shock, choke, etc, etc. I don't use those methods as I know when abused they can lead to long-term behavioral damage of the dog in question.

When referring to negative reinforcement, it is exactly as you say, withholding of rewards, scoldings, and in the extreme cases a "slap on the wrist." Punishing the dog when it does something it's not supposed to do, not punishing it because it didn't do what you want it to do.
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Old 10-10-2012, 07:04 PM   #72
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Where is Cesar Millan when you need him???
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Old 10-10-2012, 08:22 PM   #73
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Where is Cesar Millan when you need him???
Don't get me started on that guy.

I'm just eye rolling the above post.

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Old 10-10-2012, 08:25 PM   #74
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The best part about this thread is the 'garbage disposal' method.

That is the equivalent of tossing your sick family dog into a wood chipper.

Hilarious. I think I'd rather freeze to death, personally.
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Old 10-10-2012, 08:41 PM   #75
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I never liked the idea of putting fish in the freezer, first of all it's where I keep the food I'm going to eat plus I think it takes about the same amount of time to die in the trash can/toilet as it does waiting to freeze to death.

I personally let my fish die in the tank or if you will at home just like I would want to be treated. If the have some decease that I can't treat another night in the tank isn't going to make a difference in the grand scheme of things and if it's contagious the rest of the crew already has it anyway. But I have never had a problem buy letting them die in the tank and I have rarely if ever tossed a live fish in the trash, toilet, or freezer but none of them sound like a better way to go unless you've got fish morphine.
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