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Old 10-10-2012, 08:34 AM   #46
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Please enlighten me about my career that I spent years training and studying for. Not to mention I now have years of experience working with professional trainers.

First off, 30 years out of date? Did the dogs evolve to no longer recognize the chain of dominance in those 30 years? You realize no matter how many years go by, dogs will always live and respond to a pack hierarchy right?
It's their instinct and natural way of life, it's how their society is structured.

Now, I'd like to hear about the methods you think I use, methods that I should use (the "more humane and less ignorant" ones), and methods that you THINK your local dog trainer uses that are humane.

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Hitting an animal is abuse plain and simple, why use pain and fear to train when you can use much better ways?
This statement shows me you've never trained an animal unwilling to obey before.

I never said that I only used negative reinforcement as a training tool. I don't beat my dogs when I want them to listen to me, I don't instill in them a fear of my fist. I only punish them in a manner that I deem is aggressive enough to for them to respond submissively to, nothing further. I am not a dog-beating maniac, I am their master.

I only said that humane is in the eye of the beholder, and that humane treatment of animals for someone else can be different than what you believe it to be.

IE: You think me slapping my pack's snouts or behinds when they're extremely disobedient is inhumane. Yet to the dog they really don't care, they only know it as punishment for disobedience. You say it's pain, abuse, that is teaches them fear. Yet when I raise my hand to strike them, they do not flinch. Do you know why? Because they are not fearful, they do not feel abused or frightened of what is coming to them.

Last edited by AVN; 10-10-2012 at 08:52 AM.. Reason: 1
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Old 10-10-2012, 08:44 AM   #47
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Please enlighten me about my career that I spent years training and studying for.

Really, I'd like to hear about the methods you think I use, methods that I should use, and methods that you THINK your local dog trainer uses.

I never said that I only used negative reinforcement as a training tool-don't put words into my mouth. I only said that humane is in the eye of the beholder, and that humane treatment of animals for someone else can be loosely defined
You went to school for dog behaviour? I'm sure than you are familiar with operant conditioning and the affects that positive and negative reinforcers have on behaviour and the psyche. Science has shown that dogs have similar emotional centres in their brains and can in fact experience fear and anxiety. Using negative reinforcement esp physical pain can cause unneeded anxiety on dogs. It can also cause learned helplessness and ptsd. I don't agree with most local trainers, unfortunately the industry is unregulated and anyone can call themselves a trainer. Instead I rely on information from those who have actual phds in canine and animal behaviour for information on what is the best way to train and teach.

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Old 10-10-2012, 08:54 AM   #48
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Ps I own 2 terriers I am well versed in stubborn and defiant dogs. Science has come a long way in 30 years, we have learned a lot about animal behaviour in that time. If you feel like reading up on it, Google Patricia mcconnell, Karen Pryor and Sophia yin, all well respected experts in animal behaviour. You can also search for dominance /pack theory debunked and find lots of good info.

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Old 10-10-2012, 08:58 AM   #49
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If there was a school that gave me a PhD in Dogs, I would go. No, I worked as an understudy for a kennel breeder in my area. I know all about dog psychology, I've read many books.

I know everything that you just told me, (The debunking of dog pack dominance is actually controversial in the field as it is NOT CONFIRMED OR ACCEPTED BY ALL PROFESSIONAL LEVEL BREEDERS/DOG TRAINERS) but again, you are missing the freaking point of my posts. We're not here to talk about dogs and how dogs think, behave, and learn. Because I know for a fact that given long enough discussing, or even if you watched me in action, you would agree that what I'm doing is in no way abusive or inhumane. To an outsider with no experience, of course it sounds inhumane when you imagine it in your head, but that's all it is. You simply not knowing what you're talking about.

Back to the point. We're talking about the degrees of "humane" and how the meaning of such a loosely defined word can change from individual to individual, be them animal or man.

I projected a question for you to answer, what defines humane? What makes it so it's okay to clove oil a fish, but not to freeze it, or not to hammer.

Is it nothing more than a simple measure of pain?
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Old 10-10-2012, 09:02 AM   #50
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Ps I own 2 terriers I am well versed in stubborn and defiant dogs.
No. You're talking about medium level defiant dogs. You don't EVER need to punish a dog like that physically.

I rehabilitate dogs that have bitten and mauled people. OVERLY aggressive dogs.
I work with HUNTING dogs. Dogs that refuse to obey for treats, let alone acknowledge your commands or positive reinforcements.

Prison-caliber dogs for lack of a better metaphor. Not small-time sheltered rebel dogs like yours.
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Old 10-10-2012, 09:07 AM   #51
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No. You're talking about medium level defiant dogs. You don't EVER need to punish a dog like that physically.

I rehabilitate dogs that have bitten and mauled people. OVERLY aggressive dogs.
I work with HUNTING dogs. Dogs that refuse to obey for treats, let alone acknowledge your commands or positive reinforcements.

Prison-caliber dogs for lack of a better metaphor. Not small-time sheltered rebel dogs like yours.
I worked with a woman who rehabilitates aggressive dogs for a living and is the head of a well known bite prevention program here who uses only positive reinforcement (clicker training). And yes there are schools to obtain degrees in animal behaviour, I can find you a list if you would like.

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Old 10-10-2012, 09:10 AM   #52
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Whoops hit enter, 4am lol. The reason that dog training is so controversial imo is because people don't like to admit when they are wrong and have a hard time evolving. I highly recommend reading the book, when pigs fly by Jane killion, it is all about using clicker training with stubborn dogs.

In any case humane to me is respect and a desire to minimise suffering.

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Old 10-10-2012, 09:14 AM   #53
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Www.animalbehaviorsociety.org, has links to how to get degrees in animal behaviour.

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Old 10-10-2012, 09:16 AM   #54
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Need to bring the topic of fish back in.. subtly....
hmm...

Dogfish anyone?

@ starrlamia- oh and you can edit your posts via tapatalk through the more> modify option when tapping on a post...
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Old 10-10-2012, 09:17 AM   #55
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I am not disagreeing with you that there are other ways to train dogs. I work part time at my local Petco as a dog/puppy trainer, and of course I am not allowed to hit any of the dogs, so positive reinforcement is the ONLY method I use.

However, there is no argument in the community that negative reinforcement is an effective and HARMLESS training tool if done correctly. when it comes to stubborn or ill-tempered dogs, sometimes negative reinforcement is the most efficient way to teach them.

You would not believe the stories I've heard of people beating their ill-behaved dogs and then having them lash out and biting them.

I do not do that crap. I am a passionate trainer with lots of experience and knowledge, so I find it insulting that I would even be grouped into the same category as these amateur trainers who have no clue what they're doing.

Most of them only have misconstrued conceptions of what dog behavior and psychology is, and all they know is the [censored][censored][censored][censored] they found on Google.

I do not make any of my dogs suffer. But I do punish them accordingly to their offense. If they maul another dog, or a trainer, they get the slap to the face. It's the equivalent of getting bitten by the pack leader. I don't go out of my way to rough up the dog, or to beat it into submission. Just a simple verbal scolding followed by a sharp and quick physical punishment.

So in your sense of the word, this is humane, even though it causes the dog discomfort and pain.
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Old 10-10-2012, 09:21 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aokashi View Post
Need to bring the topic of fish back in.. subtly....
hmm...

Dogfish anyone?
Dogfish are a species of shark!
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Old 10-10-2012, 09:26 AM   #57
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orly? lolol
*goes off to google*

*comes back from googling*

pfft, looks nothing like a dog >.>

I was rather amused when I fist saw horse head loaches
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Old 10-10-2012, 09:27 AM   #58
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiny_dogfish

Let's let the thread go back to being what it was before we took it over. Good night~
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:29 PM   #59
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But what if the fish is too small, like a neon tetra to smash on the head. My tetras were infested with some sort of parasites that caused some sort of mucus to build up around their bodies. They were already weak and in pain most likely. I just threw them in the freezer and they were dead in less than a minute.
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:46 PM   #60
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The most humane way to euthanize fish is by using Finquel and baking soda in some tank water. The fish will quickly go to sleep and simply stops breathing under the anesthesia. The entire process takes less than 5 minutes.

http://thegab.org/Illness-and-Treatment/euthanasia.html
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