120 Gallon ADA "like", ditched, Dutch style with lots of color instead

[ps3steveo]

Tom what lighting do you have over this, thought I'd ask as it would save me reading 83 pages worth lol?

[styxx]

Originally Posted by jgb77

Styxx, I believe Tom has said a few times, that he takes the majority of his pics during or right after tank maintenance. So the haze is from uprooting and moving things around. Plus the gh booster after water change makes the water hazy as well.
Tom, do you stilll have the Cuphea in there somewhere? I didn't see it anywhere. Also same question about the Syn. Uaupes.

John

Ah yes, well that makes sense. Tom what temp. do you usually keep this tank at? I've been considering trying some moss but I absolutely hate the dying off period, and I was wondering if the E. Hydropiper will do well in unheated water? I'm sorry but I know that you mentioned your intentions to grow it emergent in your greenhouse outside, but I don't know where "the swamp" is, lol.

[plantbrain]

Originally Posted by ps3steveo

Tom what lighting do you have over this, thought I'd ask as it would save me reading 83 pages worth lol?

ATI sunpower 48" 8x54W

I run it about 0-100% for 2 hours, then 100% for 4 hours, then 100-0% for 2 hours, CO2 comes on for about 7.25 hours, off the last 45 min basically.

[plantbrain]

Originally Posted by styxx

Ah yes, well that makes sense. Tom what temp. do you usually keep this tank at? I've been considering trying some moss but I absolutely hate the dying off period, and I was wondering if the E. Hydropiper will do well in unheated water? I'm sorry but I know that you mentioned your intentions to grow it emergent in your greenhouse outside, but I don't know where "the swamp" is, lol.

I was keeping it at about 79F, it has gone up to about 82F recently.
Moss and most plants do better at say 72F, but the fish we keep will get ick and other diseases. Shrimps are better off though.

Some species of fish can do quite well, but we limit ourselves fairly quick.
Rummies are fairly tough, the double trunk elephants are fairly tough temp wise as well, so I'll drop it back later after the rummies fatten up.

The E hydropiper really took off and when I cooked the tank at 90F for a couple of days, it semi recovered by did not like it. Growth came from the outer edge and grew into new areas well, but less so in the middle. Gold nuggets also rip up a little bit here and there and dug under a branch and buried some sections.

If it were just some white clouds and shrimp......then there's little issue.
I do not know the temp tolerances for the plant though, it did recover from the high temps though.

Many others have had poor results from the local region. I've had better luck than most.

[styxx]

Thanks Tom! That's exactly the information that I was looking for...I ask because the tank is in the bedroom close to a A/C vent. I was worried, but since I won't stock with any fish for some time, and RCS are fairly hardy shrimp I figured I could get away with it. We'll see how the E. Hydropiper does, as I usually keep the place around 65-70, but I can always add a my Hydor inline heater to the loop just in case.

[jcgd]

Tom, I've got a bunch of questions based off the following quotes:

Originally Posted by plantbrain

I use a needle wheel on all cO2 enriched tanks in the sump, and will be adding a demist bubble remover before the return intake.

Get the same effect but with out the visual un aesthetics, some folks like the mist though.

Originally Posted by plantbrain

I was discussing this at meeting recently and with Tu here in CA............

So how is it I KNOW it is a CO2 issue?
A lot of experience.

I have a client's tank set up, actually 3 of them...........and they have full autodosing and reservoir checks. So we KNOW those are stable. Lights are measured and on a timer. So we KNOW those also. Water changes, are automated using a float switch and drain pump also..on a timer, so we KNOW the water changes.

One thing that happens about once ever 6 months........is..........wait for it..........waiiitttt for it........the CO2 gas tank runs out.

Son of gun.....algae and slow plant growth, the look is just not right when I come to see the tanks. These tanks all use a needle wheel diffuser. So a snail decided to cram its shell in the impeller, so that was not working, fortunately, because I do have some experience, I run NW's in pairs, so I had some back up. I alos started adding Excel to the dosing system to address any algae issues that are post CO2 systems crashing.

Large manual water change also helps.

After a few years and many plant species, you can notice that something is just not quite right, you know what the plant looks like and is suppose to do and behave when the CO2 is correct.

I'm leary of suggesting 30ppm is optimal for CO2.
My data has measured CO2 all over the place. Drop checkers suck big toe.
Disc and diffusers need cleaning and need back pressure.
NW's has their own issues, but seem the most consistent and responsive.

Wet/drys, overflows, all those things are another set of issues with CO2.
Current is a yet another within the structure of a tank, and within the scape that was designed. Current is also affected GREATLY by the pruning routines that the aquarist does. O2 from good water movement, but not so much to drive off CO..is yet another issue.

All these things relate back to CO2..........it's not just add more CO2, that's the quick response....but that's not the solution in MANY cases. Some give up and run to ferts.........but that's a quitter's approach/lack fo mastery of the gas, and it shows a lack of understanding of how complex CO2 issues can be, stuff you'd might never think of, and some things very humbling. Amano himself can spin stories on CO2 disaster topics.

If you have not had them, then simply be patient, they will come.

So I have tried and invented a few different reactors over the years/decades................I think I've cooked this goose pretty well done by now.........but I still rely on the plants to tell me what I need to know. I also have gone as good as I need for the parts. Dual stage regs are great, but require some builds to do. I use the Victor single stages.......and then a nice Needle Valve, Ideal is a great company and they are always available. I get the brass and the Vernier handle, then a nice burket solenoid and an inline FPT low crack pressure Check valve post solenoid and some thick walled Tygon tubing, then a nice Needle wheel small sized pump(Taam Rio 1000 is the smallest I've found with a commercial NW impeller).

I'm adding some Clear PVC microbubble settling collectors prior to sending via the return pump to see if I can remove some of the bubbles for aesthetics more..........(some folks like them, I really do not).
So I do not settle for good enough.

I keep trying to improve it, many things do not work, but a few do.

Same with the scape, the lighting, etc.

Originally Posted by plantbrain

The Taam Rio company will sell you one directly(the impeller, and the pump if you want also).

I'd get the smallest they offer, a Rio 1000.

This could be ran into the reactor and then have that outflow feed directly into the return pump.

A separate return pump might be a wiser method, I've done the same return + a needlewheel impeller on the return, saving space and another pump etc......but then you have mist in the tank.

You could run the pump and the NW impeller outflow into a post Reactor to remove some of the mist.

This way you use a larger NW poump since it's also the return pump and you'd need a bit more head pressure to run through the reactor/bubble remover.

I have both on my tanks, the 120 here has the Lifegard return pump and I just feed it nothing special.......directly into the return. The 70 Gal and the 180........I use separate NW pumps.

So both work, the only question is do you want mist in the tank or reduce it a fair amount.

Many ways to go with this, but they all "work".

Okay, so on my 160 gallon I tried feeding the co2 into my 1262 return pump. Not a needle wheel so I was losing a lot of gas to the surface, as any large bubble would rise too fast. It was easy to gas the fish, but I emptied a 10# in three weeks. No leaks, it was the same setup from my old tank and used to last many months.

I then tried running the co2 through a powerhead (to chop it), then down a 2' tube and then into the return pump. Slightly better than straight to the bump, but nothing to write home about.

Now I run through a Eheim 1250 pump into a phosban reactor (think cerges), then to the return pump. Now I'm getting buildup in the reactor so it maxed with a ph drop of about 0.7 or so. I could try a bigger pump, but the next one I have around is a 1260 so my tank would run two 1260s and a 1262. Too many large pumps.

You've said above (any many other times) you prefer the NW pumps. Do you think I would be able to get my levels up higher with a needle wheel? I don't care about the mist, but I can't be burning through 10#s of co2 every few weeks. You said you get around 70ppm on your 180 gallon with a nw. How much co2 are you going through?

I'm not really sure what my levels are. Drop checkers were bright yellow, but with mist I think they are kinda pointless. Mist could be gathering in them. At one point I had the ph down around 1.15 but any more and the fish were at the surface.

Why would one tank need 70ppm while another needs 40ppm even if the latter had more light?

Originally Posted by plantbrain

Dimmer sunpower.

I have GE, ATI, Aquaqwave on here now, but that will change.
Still seeing what I like and looks best.

Originally Posted by plantbrain

I have some new T5 bulbs that I am about to try out, so I can get a variety of plant and reflective colors.

Adding the red in the front and the blue in the rear is a decent combo, with a purple in the middle and mostly whites. I'll see. That's the combo I have now, so the water looks blue in the deeper sections and reflects the reds better in the front.

Which bulb combo are you currently using and which combo is your favourite? I'm trying do decide if I want to stick with a 2 bulb combo, or jump to 4, 6, or 8 just to play with combos. I'm leaning towards a 6 bulb so I can have lots of choice without paying too much for the fixture.

Originally Posted by plantbrain

ADA AS is not cleaner, it's messy stuff compared to EC big time.
You have to be much more careful and the dust fines are much longer lasting and linger in the water. But it's worth the trade off, and you just wait a few days and it's gone.

EC is likely better for folks overall/in general that like to uproot and move plants around.

I do it with ADA AS, but I've done this a long time, so maybe it's me........and I do large water changes after typically. Many do not want to do/deal with that.

I'm using 100% AS "new" in my tank and I find it clouds but clears very quickly. Within 20 minutes if I just replant floaters. A few hours if I really dig around.

But, do you find the AS to be extremely light? I find it hard to get any new plantings to stay down. Until a topped stem or new plant has stayed down for a week or two, it tends to float up. It's driving me insane. I'm using standard tongs so maybe I need pincets... I put a stem in and it comes up with the tweezers, doesn't matter what plant it is. Planting is easy if the soil is wet but there is no water. Not the case anymore.

[styxx]

@ jcgd, I have been doing this for 8 years now and all substrates come with trade offs. In my experience ADA AS has went through a series of iterations. The original was a real PITA because of the high organics would literally turn the water milky white when initially cycling. Then ADA went to the AS II and now "new" versions. Back in the old days, as I'm sure Tom will confirm, Laterite was the OG substrate and then its successor Fluorite (which I used for a few years). However in terms of growth ability, AS is by far the most accomplished. However it suffers from some disadvantages; one is the fact that it is light-weight (though depending on grain size aren't all substrates?) and the other is that over time it suffers from compaction and turns to mush (though this does take a while to happen, usually a year or more). The only way that I found to remedy the planting issue you're having is to partially bury the plantlets or to obtain plantlets with especially well developed root systems that one can grasp and drag under for a substantial depth.

[jcgd]

I hear you there, I've used a few different substrates. I used standard gravel and sand for the first five years or so. Flourite for the last six or so... loved it so I stuck with it. I found those three to be fairly heavy. Sand was lighter, but it compacted back around the plants. The AS though, is new to me. I have only tried the new version and the plant growth is awesome, but the light weight is a killer. I've resorted to planting a good chunk of the stems, lower leaves and all. Normally I strip those lower leaves, but now I leave them for anchors.

[plantbrain]

SMS is 2x as light and does not stick well together vs ADA AS, you want a sediment that's cheap, good CEC, but a PITA? Do the soil master select.
I use it to fluff up clay soil for bonsai and ornamental plants though.

ADA AS takes some getting use to, but the trade off it well worth it.

The Video of the cardinal 180 Gal tank shows ADA As that's 7+ years old now.
Still works well.

[plantbrain]

Originally Posted by styxx

Thanks Tom! That's exactly the information that I was looking for...I ask because the tank is in the bedroom close to a A/C vent. I was worried, but since I won't stock with any fish for some time, and RCS are fairly hardy shrimp I figured I could get away with it. We'll see how the E. Hydropiper does, as I usually keep the place around 65-70, but I can always add a my Hydor inline heater to the loop just in case.

In Washington, I doubt you will need much cooling power, RCS do not matter, they can easily live at 60F. CRS will do well at 68-74F.

If you 65-70F the place, then there is zero need for a heater.

[plantbrain]

Originally Posted by jcgd

Okay, so on my 160 gallon I tried feeding the co2 into my 1262 return pump. I emptied a 10# in three weeks. No leaks, it was the same setup from my old tank and used to last many months. Now I run through a Eheim 1250 pump into a phosban reactor (think cerges), then to the return pump. Now I'm getting buildup in the reactor so it maxed with a ph drop of about 0.7 or so. I could try a bigger pump, but the next one I have around is a 1260 so my tank would run two 1260s and a 1262. Too many large pumps.

Something is not right if the drop is only 0.7 pH units.
You should easily be able to knock the pH a full unit in 45 minutes or less.
I did it on a tank 10X larger.........

You've said above (any many other times) you prefer the NW pumps. Do you think I would be able to get my levels up higher with a needle wheel? I don't care about the mist, but I can't be burning through 10#s of co2 every few weeks. You said you get around 70ppm on your 180 gallon with a nw. How much co2 are you going through?

Maybe once every 4-5 month range a 10lb tank.
I run a Rio 1000 with a Rio NW impeller fed into the Lifegard return which does about 1000 gph return flow. This is a sump/wet/dry that is sealed with a dual CPR overflow, in the tank, there is a vorthech MP40.

I'm not really sure what my levels are. Drop checkers were bright yellow, but with mist I think they are kinda pointless. Mist could be gathering in them. At one point I had the ph down around 1.15 but any more and the fish were at the surface.

Well if you look at the pics and video of my tanks, they are rippling good so there is PLENTY of O2.

There is zero surface scum.

Surface scum will retain CO2 and this is good if you add too little, as you add more or if the scum comes and goes as is often the case for many...........then this can gas the fish by not allowing it to degas as it gets higher ppm.

As the concentration of CO2 increases in the water relative to air above, so does the flux.

Same with the thickness and type of boundary layer. If this boundary layer is reduced in thickness and/or the scum is removed allowing from much better/more stable CO2/O2 exchange, then the ENTIRE SYSTEM IS FAR MORES TABLE OVERALL.


Some examples and these can be used to estimate things like sediment flow through and heating cables, UG filters etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fick%27s_laws_of_diffusion

http://omlc.ogi.edu/classroom/ece532/class5/ficks1.html

Why would one tank need 70ppm while another needs 40ppm even if the latter had more light?

Not entirely certain.
More flow in that 70ppm tank, and the roots are well established and rarely uprooted. The surface scum layer does form a little at one end whereas never forms anywhere on the 120 Gal, wet/drys are different. Prefilters are different, wood is different and the algae issues are only a slight bit of BBA/GSA on glass in the 180 if... the CO2 drops.

Each tank seems to have it's own CO2 optima. I measure this AFTER the tank is up and running well and set the CO2 based on plant, fish and algae observations mostly. Only then..........do I go back and carefully measure CO2 ppm and then I do it for the entire day every few minutes of sometimes once an hour etc.

Different plants respond to and have different CO2 optima also, this is likely a huge factor in different CO2 ppm ranges folks claim, and of course poor measurement and assumptions about their CO2 ppm. I try hard to minimize that, but many are very quick to claim their CO2 is perfect, only a fool says that without a perfect tank to boot.

The 120 has a lot of weeds which grow very fast, so they have lower CO2 compensation points and compete with one another, whereas little of that goes on in the 180. If I do not trim more often in the 120, the weeds will beat up on the other species. Mostly light and CO2.

Which bulb combo are you currently using and which combo is your favourite? I'm trying do decide if I want to stick with a 2 bulb combo, or jump to 4, 6, or 8 just to play with combos. I'm leaning towards a 6 bulb so I can have lots of choice without paying too much for the fixture.

6 works well for most folks, I like wide spread of light, so most of the tanks are 8 bulb.

I'm using 100% AS "new" in my tank and I find it clouds but clears very quickly. Within 20 minutes if I just replant floaters. A few hours if I really dig around. But, do you find the AS to be extremely light? I find it hard to get any new plantings to stay down. Until a topped stem or new plant has stayed down for a week or two, it tends to float up. It's driving me insane. I'm using standard tongs so maybe I need pincets... I put a stem in and it comes up with the tweezers, doesn't matter what plant it is. Planting is easy if the soil is wet but there is no water. Not the case anymore.

I use the 12" tweezers mostly, the larger ones, 24" etc are too unwieldy.
Sometimes I use fingers etc, but tighter planting, it just takes practice and time. Part of the learning process in this hobby.

You might just need to plant the stems deeper and as mentioned already: leave the lower leaves on to help keep the plants down, foreground plants are going to much tougher obviously, so those are good to see if you can plant them easily enough.

[jcgd]

The 0.7 drop was only with the new reactor. I just added it the other day and I discovered today that this is the best it can do. It slowly fills with co2 throughout the day, so my bubble rate is too high for it. When I was feeding into the return directly it was easy to gas the fish, but it took a lot of co2 flow to do that. My mineral oil was foaming just to get the ph down 1.0. I removed the reactor tonight and modded my 1250 impeller as you showed in a thread a few years back. I fired it up a few minutes ago just to see how it was working. I fed the output right back into my return pump and it looks like a finer mist that before. I'll find out tomorrow how it does... for now I just dialed the co2 way back to an almost countable bubble rate, maybe 4-5 through the counter. I can't say if this will be enough, I was using triple that or more when I was feeding directly into my return.



I would think that our setups are very similar. I have zero surface scum... I've never had a cleaner surface on any tank. My sump is open, but the drain is a herbie style, fully submerged in the overflow and in the sump. The sump's water surface is like glass, no turbulance. I have low to moderate ripples on the surface of the tank, not so much waves, but more like you can see the water flow. There is an open wier feeding the overflow, maybe 5/8" thickness and the drop isn't very high, but there is definately mixing there. It does a corkscrew like a weir in a river. The water level sits at the hight of the second pipe, it was just low at the time of the pic.

[plantbrain]

You have naked wood above the water.

Moss that stuff:

[ua hua]

Tom, I'm glad that jcgd asked the questions he did as there was some questions that were some of the same questions I had. I am very curious about the mention of a microbubble settling collectors. I posted a thread a couple of weeks ago asking about running a needle wheel pump through a reactor and was wondering if it would help keep some of the microbubbles out of the tank. Almost all the responses I got were people saying the bubbles would just get pushed through the reactor but don't know of this was from anyone that has first hand experience doing this or not. I plan on buying a new pump for my wet/dry that I will be putting back on my tank after not running it for 4 years and would like to try a needle wheel pump but don't care for the seltzer water look. Any insight or suggestions on whether my thoughts of running a needle wheel pump through a reactor would prevent or at least minimize the micro bubbles in the tank.

[jcgd]

Originally Posted by plantbrain

You have naked wood above the water.

Moss that stuff:

Yes, I have mossed some now, mostly just around the waterline. The fissidens seem to stay wet up to about 2" out of the water. I wrapped about 4" just to try it. I have a little "bridge" of wood from one mound to the other, just above the water.

I think I'm going to try to get the bolbitis to grow out the top, but I need to grow some out. I killed most of it by leaving it in a bucket for over a year. It's starting to come back strong.

Originally Posted by ua hua

Tom, I'm glad that jcgd asked the questions he did as there was some questions that were some of the same questions I had. I am very curious about the mention of a microbubble settling collectors. I posted a thread a couple of weeks ago asking about running a needle wheel pump through a reactor and was wondering if it would help keep some of the microbubbles out of the tank. Almost all the responses I got were people saying the bubbles would just get pushed through the reactor but don't know of this was from anyone that has first hand experience doing this or not. I plan on buying a new pump for my wet/dry that I will be putting back on my tank after not running it for 4 years and would like to try a needle wheel pump but don't care for the seltzer water look. Any insight or suggestions on whether my thoughts of running a needle wheel pump through a reactor would prevent or at least minimize the micro bubbles in the tank.

Just wanted to add that my ph readings were all off. My probe was wacky and I didn't double check it. I may have been getting enough co2 with my little reactor but I need to reaffirm all my numbers now.