Un-even floor 20g Long.

theericafish · 07-02-2012, 07:28 AM

Well like the title says I recently purchased a 20L and I'm having issues with the tank being level right to left. I'd say there is about a 1/8 inch difference in the water levels on the left and right of the tank. Front to back it looks pretty level maybe 1/16 or less.

Used a level on the floor and have the same results, level front to back, leaning slightly to the left.

Thought I'd ask the DIY section and see if you guys have any comments or concerns. I've done some research online but there is a wide variety of debate on the subject.

My personal opinion is its not aesthetically pleasing but does not seem to be a major issue(at least in a 20 gallon).

Since the stand is solid and the tank is being fully supported and there is no "twisting" of the tank it should be okay, I'd rather not shim the tank and possibly warp the stand resulting in the tank being warped also leading to bigger problems.

Anyone have any comforting stories so I can sleep a bit better?

HypnoticAquatic · 07-02-2012, 07:56 AM

i got a 40b thats on a sewing machine table thats id say a good 3/8+ off center at 3' its been fine for few years so far, you cant see it when its full due to the rim so doesnt bother me but if i did it again id level it from the base of the stand, if the stand is worth a crap it should be able to hold just fine. the key is just haveing is supported like it needs on the bottom, yes you can put more stress on it by having more off camber but in reality 1/8 and 1/16 is very minute. if i can carry my 20L with1inch of sub and a bit of water it will hold just fine~!

BS87 · 07-02-2012, 01:14 PM

It may not make the tank explode gloriously in a few months, but if you can drain it and put wood shims under the stand to make it level (2$ @ lowes etc) It's good peace of mind.

**Aquatic Delight** · 07-02-2012, 03:24 PM

I've got a 20L sitting on some metal shelving. its got a 1/4in difference in water level left to right, i just broke out my tape measure to see the actual number. so far no problems (other than me hating the unlevel water line). that tank has only been up and running for about 2 months though.

Kelli · 07-02-2012, 04:03 PM

Our house is older and nothing is level. My 55 had a 1/2" drop from left to right, it was the flattest spot in the house. Most of our doors had to be rehung because they wouldn't close properly from the overall torque in the house. That being said the tank was fine for 5 years, I'm in the process of breaking it down now. Aside from the OCD in me hating the uneven water level I had no other issues with it.

~Kelli

**Hoppy** · 07-02-2012, 05:07 PM

When I set up a tank I always level the stand first, with no tank on it. Then I put the empty tank on it to recheck the level, and adjust the shims if needed. I like to use layers of wood veneer as shims, with spots of glue between layers, then a couple of spots of glue to hold the shim to the bottom of the stand. This works very well for me - I hate the appearance of an un-level tank.

theericafish · 07-02-2012, 10:17 PM

Thanks for the info guys. Since the tank is cycling and only been up for a couple days I may try and shim it when I've emptied most of the water. From my research it seems I can just buy the 39cent shim packs and just shim the left corners up and fill in the gaps as much as possible till I can't fit anymore under right?

My only concern is damaging the stand or having it settle un level again..

Good to hear I'm not the only one with the off level ocd :P

The thought of it busting makes me shudder haha. Feeling a bit more confident now though.

Michiba54 · 07-02-2012, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theericafish

Thanks for the info guys. Since the tank is cycling and only been up for a couple days I may try and shim it when I've emptied most of the water. From my research it seems I can just buy the 39cent shim packs and just shim the left corners up and fill in the gaps as much as possible till I can't fit anymore under right?

My only concern is damaging the stand or having it settle un level again..

Good to hear I'm not the only one with the off level ocd :P

The thought of it busting makes me shudder haha. Feeling a bit more confident now though.

Yes, you can just shim the side that is not level. You don't have to fill the gap or anything, at least I never do. In the future you can make sure the stand is level with and without the tank, then add 25% of your water and check the level again... repeat at 50%, 75%, and 100%.

PlantedRich · 07-03-2012, 12:33 AM

If you get the four corners of the stand level it is likely the rest will be fine. In this case you are doing very little shimming but for future, there is a right and wrong way to shim.

If you take a tapered shim and stick it under from just one side, it tends to be tighter on the outer side than the thin part further under the edge. This can make the shime give more than necessary. If you were shimming something thicker like a door frame, this could lead to the frame twisting.

It is better to use two tapered shims, one from the inside and one outside. Overlapping them so the weight is supported by a larger portion of the shim makes it better. You are putting a lot of weight on a little bitty sliver of wood so giving it all the help you can makes sense. It's also easier to raise it by tapping first one shim and then the other. Then when you have it shimmed and happy, score along the edge and break it off.

theericafish · 07-03-2012, 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlantedRich

If you get the four corners of the stand level it is likely the rest will be fine. In this case you are doing very little shimming but for future, there is a right and wrong way to shim.

If you take a tapered shim and stick it under from just one side, it tends to be tighter on the outer side than the thin part further under the edge. This can make the shime give more than necessary. If you were shimming something thicker like a door frame, this could lead to the frame twisting.

It is better to use two tapered shims, one from the inside and one outside. Overlapping them so the weight is supported by a larger portion of the shim makes it better. You are putting a lot of weight on a little bitty sliver of wood so giving it all the help you can makes sense. It's also easier to raise it by tapping first one shim and then the other. Then when you have it shimmed and happy, score along the edge and break it off.

http://www.ehow.com/video_4949086_us...oor-frame.html
I had to go watch a video about using shims on a door frame just to understand ><. Basically just stacking shims to make them stronger and fit a wider area better right? But when a shim is used on the floor it just acts as a tool to tilt a stand(in this case) at an angle which counters the angle of the floor to make the stand level? And basically 100% of the stands base should be supported evenly on the shim/floor if the stand is level.

(just making sure I understand all this :O)

http://www.homedepot.com/Lumber-Comp...&storeId=10051

I'm going to try and make it to home depot tomorrow and probably pick these up.

1. Empty out as much water as possible
2. Insert shims going toward the right on the front and back corners of the stand
3. Get it level/fill in the left side with shims all the way across since its probably going to be slightly off the ground.

Hopefully all should be well then? I'm guessing I won't have to insert them too far since its only an 1/8th of an inch difference.

Found this also which helped explain things a bit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ts_Jb8WJJfw

Here are some pictures of my stand just in case I missed something...

The outside.. excuse the angle of the photo, kind of a tight spot.

The inside showing the thickness of the outer shell of the stand and the particle board shelf.

Full shot for good measure.

PlantedRich · 07-03-2012, 04:19 AM

Sorry. Probably should have attached pictures.
The idea is that if done as in the top drawing, the pressure will all be on one small spot on the shim at the red arrow. This will tend to crush this spot and not last as well. It will also have a tendency to force the board over in the direction of the Orange arrow. Better to do it as in the second drawing. The pressure is then all nice and level at the blue arrow.

You should not need to shim all the way around. The bottom board and the stand should not be so weak that it will bow in the middle. The tank itself will not bow due to it being much like a box. The bottom can't bow due to the side won't bend. The side can't bend due to the bottom won't bend. If one corner is higher than the rest, there is a twisting motion involved which is NOT good. But if the four corners are all supported and level, the sides don't really need support.

Make better sense that way? Sorry for the poor first answer.

theericafish · 07-03-2012, 04:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlantedRich

Sorry. Probably should have attached pictures.
The idea is that if done as in the top drawing, the pressure will all be on one small spot on the shim at the red arrow. This will tend to crush this spot and not last as well. It will also have a tendency to force the board over in the direction of the Orange arrow. Better to do it as in the second drawing. The pressure is then all nice and level at the blue arrow.

You should not need to shim all the way around. The bottom board and the stand should not be so weak that it will bow in the middle. The tank itself will not bow due to it being much like a box. The bottom can't bow due to the side won't bend. The side can't bend due to the bottom won't bend. If one corner is higher than the rest, there is a twisting motion involved which is NOT good. But if the four corners are all supported and level, the sides don't really need support.

Make better sense that way? Sorry for the poor first answer.

Makes a lot of sense that way. "The bottom can't bow due to the side won't bend. The side can't bend due to the bottom won't bend." I think my head exploded there though

Excuse my lack of knowledge, no need to apologize

So basically in my situation there is no need to stack shims.

All I need to do is put them in on the front and back left hand side corners(inserting them from the left hand side going to the right hand side) and tap them in until I find the tank(and stand) are level.

Then make sure the tank is level from front to back as well to make sure there is no twisting of the tank.

Why cant my floors be level T_T

PlantedRich · 07-03-2012, 06:43 PM

But if the floor was level, you would not have the chance to learn all this building tech stuff???

The part about the tank not bowing is related. Are you familiar with angle iron? much harder to bend than flat steel. If you have a hardback book you can see what I mean. Laying flat you can bend the book pretty easy but if you open the book to form a ninety degree angle, you will have a job to bend it. Then if you think of the tank, it is like a book only with two upright sides. Just nearly impossible to bend the bottom short of tearing the joints apart!

Diana · 07-04-2012, 06:49 PM

It is difficult to get under that stand to double up on the shims as shown in Planted Rich's ecellent sketch. But do it.
Shim from the outside, and then move the stand and match it (double up on the shims).

If you are still worried about the stand being long enough to bend you could add more sets of shims, as many as you want. At the worst end the shims would be about 1/8" high, in the middle the shims would be only about 1/16" high. That is just the skinny end on the shim!

I also have a house that seems to lean a lot. Several of my tanks show sloping water levels of up to 1/2" per 4'. That is way too much, IMO. But I sure do not worry about 1/8"!

PlantedRich · 07-04-2012, 08:36 PM

To explain why I favor using two shims rather than one, the drawing will help. It is not a true scale but drawn more to show what might happen. When a single shim is used, the edge of the stand board rides on a very small part of the shim, something like a knife edge. This can lead to it crushing this tiny little peice of shim rather than if the broad bottom of the board rides on the shim. It is often not a quick process but over a week or so, the shim may crush and what you thought was a totally level stand is off again.
ARGHHH!

I would look at putting the shims under the corners of the stand. One from the back and one from the side so that they overlap but you don't have to get right under the stand where it is so hard.

I would put the back one under first as it may be close to the wall and then use the one you can get to better to even it up.

07-02-2012, 07:28 AM	#1
theericafish Planted Member (View User Tanks) PTrader: (0/0%) Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: CA Posts: 155	Un-even floor 20g Long. Well like the title says I recently purchased a 20L and I'm having issues with the tank being level right to left. I'd say there is about a 1/8 inch difference in the water levels on the left and right of the tank. Front to back it looks pretty level maybe 1/16 or less. Used a level on the floor and have the same results, level front to back, leaning slightly to the left. Thought I'd ask the DIY section and see if you guys have any comments or concerns. I've done some research online but there is a wide variety of debate on the subject. My personal opinion is its not aesthetically pleasing but does not seem to be a major issue(at least in a 20 gallon). Since the stand is solid and the tank is being fully supported and there is no "twisting" of the tank it should be okay, I'd rather not shim the tank and possibly warp the stand resulting in the tank being warped also leading to bigger problems. Anyone have any comforting stories so I can sleep a bit better? __________________ Tank city b****!

07-02-2012, 03:24 PM	#4
Aquatic Delight H is for Hillstream (View User Tanks) PTrader: (7/100%) Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: San Antonio TX Posts: 1,334	I've got a 20L sitting on some metal shelving. its got a 1/4in difference in water level left to right, i just broke out my tape measure to see the actual number. so far no problems (other than me hating the unlevel water line). that tank has only been up and running for about 2 months though. __________________ __________________________________ Will ________________________________ my 29g story Hillstream/Boreno Loach Refuge To See all of my photos Click ME!

07-02-2012, 05:07 PM	#6
Hoppy Planted Tank Guru (View User Tanks) PTrader: (57/100%) Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 17,288	When I set up a tank I always level the stand first, with no tank on it. Then I put the empty tank on it to recheck the level, and adjust the shims if needed. I like to use layers of wood veneer as shims, with spots of glue between layers, then a couple of spots of glue to hold the shim to the bottom of the stand. This works very well for me - I hate the appearance of an un-level tank. __________________ Hoppy

07-02-2012, 10:17 PM	#7
theericafish Planted Member (View User Tanks) PTrader: (0/0%) Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: CA Posts: 155	Thanks for the info guys. Since the tank is cycling and only been up for a couple days I may try and shim it when I've emptied most of the water. From my research it seems I can just buy the 39cent shim packs and just shim the left corners up and fill in the gaps as much as possible till I can't fit anymore under right? My only concern is damaging the stand or having it settle un level again.. Good to hear I'm not the only one with the off level ocd :P The thought of it busting makes me shudder haha. Feeling a bit more confident now though. __________________ Tank city b****!

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07-02-2012, 07:56 AM	#2
HypnoticAquatic Wannabe Guru (View User Tanks) PTrader: (18/100%) Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: arvada, co Posts: 1,277	i got a 40b thats on a sewing machine table thats id say a good 3/8+ off center at 3' its been fine for few years so far, you cant see it when its full due to the rim so doesnt bother me but if i did it again id level it from the base of the stand, if the stand is worth a crap it should be able to hold just fine. the key is just haveing is supported like it needs on the bottom, yes you can put more stress on it by having more off camber but in reality 1/8 and 1/16 is very minute. if i can carry my 20L with1inch of sub and a bit of water it will hold just fine~!

07-02-2012, 01:14 PM	#3
BS87 Planted Member (View User Tanks) PTrader: (0/0%) Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Rochester Posts: 218	It may not make the tank explode gloriously in a few months, but if you can drain it and put wood shims under the stand to make it level (2$ @ lowes etc) It's good peace of mind.

07-02-2012, 04:03 PM	#5
Kelli Algae Grower (View User Tanks) PTrader: (0/0%) Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Des Moines, IA Posts: 83	Our house is older and nothing is level. My 55 had a 1/2" drop from left to right, it was the flattest spot in the house. Most of our doors had to be rehung because they wouldn't close properly from the overall torque in the house. That being said the tank was fine for 5 years, I'm in the process of breaking it down now. Aside from the OCD in me hating the uneven water level I had no other issues with it. ~Kelli

07-03-2012, 12:33 AM	#9
PlantedRich Wannabe Guru (View User Tanks) PTrader: (0/0%) Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Pflugerville, Tx Posts: 1,513	If you get the four corners of the stand level it is likely the rest will be fine. In this case you are doing very little shimming but for future, there is a right and wrong way to shim. If you take a tapered shim and stick it under from just one side, it tends to be tighter on the outer side than the thin part further under the edge. This can make the shime give more than necessary. If you were shimming something thicker like a door frame, this could lead to the frame twisting. It is better to use two tapered shims, one from the inside and one outside. Overlapping them so the weight is supported by a larger portion of the shim makes it better. You are putting a lot of weight on a little bitty sliver of wood so giving it all the help you can makes sense. It's also easier to raise it by tapping first one shim and then the other. Then when you have it shimmed and happy, score along the edge and break it off.

07-03-2012, 04:19 AM	#11
PlantedRich Wannabe Guru (View User Tanks) PTrader: (0/0%) Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Pflugerville, Tx Posts: 1,513	Sorry. Probably should have attached pictures. The idea is that if done as in the top drawing, the pressure will all be on one small spot on the shim at the red arrow. This will tend to crush this spot and not last as well. It will also have a tendency to force the board over in the direction of the Orange arrow. Better to do it as in the second drawing. The pressure is then all nice and level at the blue arrow. You should not need to shim all the way around. The bottom board and the stand should not be so weak that it will bow in the middle. The tank itself will not bow due to it being much like a box. The bottom can't bow due to the side won't bend. The side can't bend due to the bottom won't bend. If one corner is higher than the rest, there is a twisting motion involved which is NOT good. But if the four corners are all supported and level, the sides don't really need support. Make better sense that way? Sorry for the poor first answer.

07-03-2012, 06:43 PM	#13
PlantedRich Wannabe Guru (View User Tanks) PTrader: (0/0%) Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Pflugerville, Tx Posts: 1,513	But if the floor was level, you would not have the chance to learn all this building tech stuff??? The part about the tank not bowing is related. Are you familiar with angle iron? much harder to bend than flat steel. If you have a hardback book you can see what I mean. Laying flat you can bend the book pretty easy but if you open the book to form a ninety degree angle, you will have a job to bend it. Then if you think of the tank, it is like a book only with two upright sides. Just nearly impossible to bend the bottom short of tearing the joints apart!

07-04-2012, 06:49 PM	#14
Diana Planted Tank Guru (View User Tanks) PTrader: (0/0%) Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Contra Costa CA Posts: 5,083	It is difficult to get under that stand to double up on the shims as shown in Planted Rich's ecellent sketch. But do it. Shim from the outside, and then move the stand and match it (double up on the shims). If you are still worried about the stand being long enough to bend you could add more sets of shims, as many as you want. At the worst end the shims would be about 1/8" high, in the middle the shims would be only about 1/16" high. That is just the skinny end on the shim! I also have a house that seems to lean a lot. Several of my tanks show sloping water levels of up to 1/2" per 4'. That is way too much, IMO. But I sure do not worry about 1/8"!

07-04-2012, 08:36 PM	#15
PlantedRich Wannabe Guru (View User Tanks) PTrader: (0/0%) Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Pflugerville, Tx Posts: 1,513	To explain why I favor using two shims rather than one, the drawing will help. It is not a true scale but drawn more to show what might happen. When a single shim is used, the edge of the stand board rides on a very small part of the shim, something like a knife edge. This can lead to it crushing this tiny little peice of shim rather than if the broad bottom of the board rides on the shim. It is often not a quick process but over a week or so, the shim may crush and what you thought was a totally level stand is off again. ARGHHH! I would look at putting the shims under the corners of the stand. One from the back and one from the side so that they overlap but you don't have to get right under the stand where it is so hard. I would put the back one under first as it may be close to the wall and then use the one you can get to better to even it up.