my GBRs have been dying. not sure why... - Page 2
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Old 06-27-2012, 10:37 AM   #16
pandamonium
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it could be ich but this late seems unlikely, at least to me. the ram died yesterday and the first visible sign of ich was 10 days ago, which is also when i started treatment. at 86 degrees, the ich life cycle takes about 3-4 days. i dosed copper the day i saw it as well so any free swimming ich would have been knocked out by the copper. if ich was harbored in the gills, maybe that was it? but then why did none of my fish show any signs of stress, aside from hiding which is what they had done before the ich as well. i know for certain one of them died from fighting cuz i watched it happen and i saw the beat up ram later.
the ich happened before the hatchets came in. i think it was stress induced or was in on the honeycomb cat but even then, the honeycomb cat was one of the first fish in my tank 4 weeks ago and did fine. the ich hit when i removed my platy so i reasoned it was stress that led to the ich outbreak.
funny thing about the startling haha my first hatchet has never even tried to leap no matter how many times i aquascape or surprise him. it was all the little ones that did. and yeah most of my fish are ich susceptible, but somehow, my hatchet never got it. maybe ich doesnt swim to the surface as much? hahaha
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Old 06-27-2012, 11:09 AM   #17
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Large water changes are to remove any potential remaining ich, so that when you dose again you're dealing with a smaller volume. It's how you treat most bacteria infections just incase you don't get all of it. It's probably either ich or another bacterial infection. Either way you should make the next water change after dosing a large one IME
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Old 06-27-2012, 11:51 AM   #18
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with coppersafe there is no need for another dose. i confirmed this with another guy who had used the stuff before. he recommended it to people who had scaleless fish or delicate fish in general. its 1mL per 4 gallons of water (not including displaced volume) and the medicine will stay in the water column for 1 month. the only time to do a water change would be before beginning treatment and after the ich has been dealt with. if i did a water change and redosed, thats just adding extra work and im cheap so i wouldnt want to waste the coppersafe lol. my next water change will just be to remove coppersafe, not adding anything back in as the ich symptoms were gone a while ago. only continuing treatment to ensure its gone.
if bacterial infections present no visible symptoms then i guess it could be that. looking up some bacterial conditions, it seems they all have something visible like lethargy or wasting. the ram that died was definitely well fed and did not have any signs before i left that morning. if it was ich in the gills, that may have killed my other rams, makes sense as the first of the 3 to die was the one that had the most ich issues (even then, visible symptoms werent that abundant after death). the 2nd i am positive was aggression as i saw it happening before lights out in the tank, and the 3rd i have no idea. if there is a bacterial infection that has no symptoms then maybe that could be it? but why did not all the other fish contract it beforehand as well?
anyhow, next water change is gonna be sunday i think. after i let the temp drop back to normal on wednesday/thursday. no more dosing and ich should be set. last visible sign was most definitely last week
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Old 06-27-2012, 05:04 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bananariot View Post
Large water changes are to remove any potential remaining ich, so that when you dose again you're dealing with a smaller volume. It's how you treat most bacteria infections just incase you don't get all of it. It's probably either ich or another bacterial infection. Either way you should make the next water change after dosing a large one IME
There is a difference between ich and a bacterial infection though. Ich is not bacterial. It's a form of parasite. Antibiotics have low to no effects on ich. They are not classed as gram positive or gram negative. Bacteria is effected by antibiotics. They are a negative or positive gram based life. Raised temps will speed ich in its life cycle while in some cases raised temps have no effect on bacteria other then making them bloom better. Water changes also may not reduce any of the above.
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Old 06-27-2012, 07:07 PM   #20
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http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/ichthyophthirius

I think it's a great article. You can control F water change and see for yourself. It's always helped in the past for me and I think it's a pretty standard procedure after dosing any sort of meds or treating for bacterial or ich.

It's also pretty standard for big water changes for invertebrates which are wayy more fragile to do large water changes after treating for bacterial infection. The idea is to remove floating detritus and bacteria from the water column, while continuously dosing, to add fresh non infected water. Just remember to preserve the water quality so that the new water resembles the tank water in pH, gH, etc.
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Old 06-27-2012, 08:18 PM   #21
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There is a difference between ich and a bacterial infection though. Ich is not bacterial. It's a form of parasite. Antibiotics have low to no effects on ich. They are not classed as gram positive or gram negative. Bacteria is effected by antibiotics. They are a negative or positive gram based life. Raised temps will speed ich in its life cycle while in some cases raised temps have no effect on bacteria other then making them bloom better. Water changes also may not reduce any of the above.
this is what i thought. i believe ich is a protozoan. i have not done any water changes while treating the ich.

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http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/ichthyophthirius

I think it's a great article. You can control F water change and see for yourself. It's always helped in the past for me and I think it's a pretty standard procedure after dosing any sort of meds or treating for bacterial or ich.

It's also pretty standard for big water changes for invertebrates which are wayy more fragile to do large water changes after treating for bacterial infection. The idea is to remove floating detritus and bacteria from the water column, while continuously dosing, to add fresh non infected water. Just remember to preserve the water quality so that the new water resembles the tank water in pH, gH, etc.
its a great article. i did the search for water changes and i already did exactly what they had suggested. i did a water change before medicating and since my fish showed no signs of stress, there was no need to remove the coppersafe and do water changes during treatment. and afterwards, the article says to do a water change to remove residual drugs, which i planned to do anyhow.
regarding detritus, since i have very few fish and a large amount of nitrate/ammonium sucking plants (frogbit and pennywort), decaying matter isnt really an issue, at least from the nitrate test. the same goes for the other 2, both at 0ppm throughout treatment.
and since ich is not a bacterial infection, doing water changes i dont think will affect it much, as suggested by aquaticfan. if bacterial infections are similar to the initial bacterial bloom in a cycling tank, then in my experience, changing the water doesnt do much at all. the 80% water change resulted in water as cloudy as it was before the change.
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Old 06-27-2012, 09:16 PM   #22
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Yeah ich isn't a bacterial infection. However, either way its floating in the water column, it's how it spreads from fish to fish. Same with bacteria, water movement causes the bacteria to be in your water column as well. A water large water change, meaning in my opinion not 80% but around 50% could cut down on the amount of free floating bacteria and ich.

water changes aren't a solution, it's merely to go with your treatment, that's why I suggest it after treating the tank. It removes.....excess bacteria (free floating), excess protozoan/parasites (free floating), and excess stressful medication (free floating).

You and me both know that when we look at "pond" water to look for protists, amoeba, protozoan, and other parasites. We can simply just sample water and throw it under a microscope. We don't have to tredge the bottom of a pond or anything, it's free floating. Water changes after a certain increment of time after the treatment is meant to cut down on the possibility of the return of whatever it is affecting the tank and also to give the fish some freshwater
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Old 06-28-2012, 05:41 AM   #23
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yeah thats what i plan on doing. the reason im not changing the water now is because i still have the meds in the tank. once im done with the treatment, should be tomorrow, i will change the water. at this point, if i am correct, there should be no more ich free floating. the only thing that should be in the water column is coppersafe which i will have to do many water changes over time to remove. thats in my schedule once i finish ich treatments completely. i hate ich.
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Old 06-28-2012, 09:53 AM   #24
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yeah thats what i plan on doing. the reason im not changing the water now is because i still have the meds in the tank. once im done with the treatment, should be tomorrow, i will change the water. at this point, if i am correct, there should be no more ich free floating. the only thing that should be in the water column is coppersafe which i will have to do many water changes over time to remove. thats in my schedule once i finish ich treatments completely. i hate ich.
Ich may be residing in the gills still but unlikely. Also may be in the sand, hopefully catfish movement will stir it up and expose them.
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Old 06-28-2012, 10:01 AM   #25
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if ich was in the gills i would expect to see flashing/heavy breathing but i havent seen that lately. i guess i can say with almost 80% certainty that there is no ich in my tank. tomorrow i will turn down the temp and resume normal tank fucntion FINALLY! sand was all siphoned pre-treatment to remove as much as i could. anything else will definitely have gone into the free floating stage as high temps will accelerate the life cycle. i also read that temps of 86 interrupt ich's ability to reproduce. i dont think any would be in the sand at this point, as there were no cysts that occured within the last 4 days, 4 days being the average life cycle of ich at 86 degrees. my catfish dont stir up sand as much as cory cats do. they are primarily nocturnal surface feeders
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Old 06-28-2012, 07:30 PM   #26
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THere is usually alway ich in any aquarium. It lives, dormant, in the gills and substrate, and only when the residents of the aquarium are stressed will the ich make its move.
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Old 06-28-2012, 08:40 PM   #27
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i had always thought that this was disproven because i dont think ich has a dormant stage in its life cycle but this is something that has been up in the air for a while. for me, i dont want it to come back haha so im gonna try to keep stress low.
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Old 06-29-2012, 12:54 AM   #28
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It has been disproven. Ich does not live in the water at all times. Bacteria on the other hand does.
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