Planted, Scaless, & Inverts! ICH! OH MY!

[Drowki]

I haven't had a fish tank in years and up until 3 months ago, I started back up. Three months later I move, and replant my tank. Things are fine, a couple days after adding the sand I noticed that one of my cory's have sand like spots on him (thinking it was my sand)

since then, I upgraded to 55 gallon and noticed that another fish has the same issue... Brand new tank and I didn't split up the sick from the healthy! (DOH!)

I raised the temp to 86-87 degree's been 24 hours now. I need do a treatment but I do not know! I was planning on doing a water change every other day (20 % or until i get bored walking back and forth with a bucket in my apartment and emptying it. CLEAN! TANK (i went from a 20 gallon (2 buckets of water went into this tank) and now its a 55) - That is like 70% water change but my fish are still infected I just diluted the issue.


I thought about adding salt but that means my plants are dead
I thought about medications but 99% of them will kill my inverts and harm my loaches <3 locaches <3

so what the hell do i do? =(

I love my tank.

dont have a lot of room for multiple tanks (my roommate will hate me -.-)


if you have read this or read this and commented thank you for spending the time!

Cheers!

CR

[JackFu]

That temperature will kill ich. You don't need to do anything else, really, except wait 10 days, assuming you've correctly identified the disease.

Water changes aren't going to help, so I would knock that off. You're just going to stress the fish by mucking around in the tank and destabilizing the water parameters. Get a test kit and only change water if ammonia / nitrites aren't zero or nitrates get over 20 or 30 ppm.

Salt won't kill the plants if you keep it to something reasonable. If you stay below 1 tbsp / 5 gallons, it's safe for nearly all plants. Using salt for ich doesn't kill ich or much of anything at typical freshwater aquarium levels, but it does improve gill function.

As water gets warmer, the oxygen level in the water decreases, so salt helps the fish to get enough oxygen in the warmer water. You should probably consider running an air stone or two.

[rreekers]

I personally think water changes help, I've had ich a few time.. dieting that time I was doing 20% water changes/gravel vacuum ..
Kept the lights off.. added full time air stones (killed a bunch of fish my 1st experience with ich .. I think it was lack of oxygen. :/ )

Lastly, I've read treat for a week after the last spot was seem.

Salt is not needed

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[dtang21]

I just fought a battle with ich myself. I tried salt, dosing cupramine, but in the end netting the fish and putting them in a bucket for 24 hours with rid ich plus did the trick. Good luck!

[Aquaticfan]

Originally Posted by JackFu

That temperature will kill ich. You don't need to do anything else, really, except wait 10 days, assuming you've correctly identified the disease.

Water changes aren't going to help, so I would knock that off. You're just going to stress the fish by mucking around in the tank and destabilizing the water parameters. Get a test kit and only change water if ammonia / nitrites aren't zero or nitrates get over 20 or 30 ppm.

Salt won't kill the plants if you keep it to something reasonable. If you stay below 1 tbsp / 5 gallons, it's safe for nearly all plants. Using salt for ich doesn't kill ich or much of anything at typical freshwater aquarium levels, but it does improve gill function.

As water gets warmer, the oxygen level in the water decreases, so salt helps the fish to get enough oxygen in the warmer water. You should probably consider running an air stone or two.

Raising the Temp does not kill ich.. All it does is speed up the life cycle of it. From being water borne to attached to the fish and unseen then to the white specs you see to bursting and falling off and creating more ich.. It also causes O2 levels to drop.

Salt does help eliminate fresh water ich But in the amounts needed to kill ich it will kill plants. You also have to be careful of some fish such as Loaches/Boatia, Catfish and plecos, Knifefish and some other various fish.

Some of the medications you also have to use cation on as they can be hard on the fish and kill plants. Alot of the meds like Rid Ich plus contain Formalin and Malachite green. Formalin is Formaldehyde. Some meds are also O2 robbing so you want to increase the surface agitation of the tank. So you have to be careful not to run higher doses with higher temps.

One med that works well and is also less damaging to fish and the tank is Seachems Paraguard. You can also use their Cupramine with a little formalin. But id do it in a non planted tank like a QT.

[Aquaticfan]

Originally Posted by dtang21

I just fought a battle with ich myself. I tried salt, dosing cupramine, but in the end netting the fish and putting them in a bucket for 24 hours with rid ich plus did the trick. Good luck!

How many days did you do this?? one time is not enough. Its something you would have to do until the spots were all gone and then do it for 4 to 5 more days after that.

[Psionic]

I used rid ich in my tank a weeks ago for 2 clown loaches. It didn't kill anything in there. Shrimp, clown loaches, honeycomb catfish, assassin snails, dwarf hovering zebra loaches. I put in half the dose and all was fine so I did the normal dose after that. I turned off my co2 and ran my bubbler the whole time. I took out my purigen also. I also vacuumed the substrate daily when I did the recommended water changes. 3 days and it was all gone, but I did it for another week after that to make sure I got it all.


-Val

[Drowki]

Right now I have had my temp up to 86 degrees since Monday. Last night I started to add some salt (1 TBSP per hour) = 5x doses last night and 1 dose of 1 TBSP this morning.

So right now i have 6 doses of 1 TBSP in a 55 GAL.

The cardinal that was one of the worst fish with ICH has dropped some of the cysts on the fish. (looks better)

the clown loach only come out in the morning, I think partly due to the fact that I only have two loaches (will be buying another one to get them to play more) - I realize they will get bigger.

The clown loach looks a little better but a little hard to judge. I am thinking of adding 6 more tablespoons of aquarium salt tonight (1 TBSP per Hour)

I plan on doing a water change/ vacuum the bottom today or Sunday - but i don't want to imbalance the tank right now so, I am leaning toward Sunday.

[Aquaticfan]

For the salt to be effective you need to be at least 1 teaspoon per gallon. Loaches and other scaleless fish will tolerate those levels fine. Remember if you do any water changes to add back the salt for what you have changed out.

[Drowki]

Originally Posted by Aquaticfan

For the salt to be effective you need to be at least 1 teaspoon per gallon. Loaches and other scaleless fish will tolerate those levels fine. Remember if you do any water changes to add back the salt for what you have changed out.

I am aware of that, I rather slowly increase (1 tablespoon per hour) the salt levels as opose to here is 11 tablespoons!

I noticed a large difference already with my fish... I just get nervous with my plants =(

[jeremyTR]

Originally Posted by Aquaticfan

Raising the Temp does not kill ich.. All it does is speed up the life cycle of it. From being water borne to attached to the fish and unseen then to the white specs you see to bursting and falling off and creating more ich.. It also causes O2 levels to drop.

Salt does help eliminate fresh water ich But in the amounts needed to kill ich it will kill plants. You also have to be careful of some fish such as Loaches/Boatia, Catfish and plecos, Knifefish and some other various fish.

Some of the medications you also have to use cation on as they can be hard on the fish and kill plants. Alot of the meds like Rid Ich plus contain Formalin and Malachite green. Formalin is Formaldehyde. Some meds are also O2 robbing so you want to increase the surface agitation of the tank. So you have to be careful not to run higher doses with higher temps.

One med that works well and is also less damaging to fish and the tank is Seachems Paraguard. You can also use their Cupramine with a little formalin. But id do it in a non planted tank like a QT.

You're wrong about the temp and ick. It speeds it up and also stops the life cycle. I think 88 is the magic number.

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[Drowki]

Originally Posted by jeremyTR

You're wrong about the temp and ick. It speeds it up and also stops the life cycle. I think 88 is the magic number.

Sent from my HTC Evo 4G

From what I read it is one of the best things to do in this type of setup. The nice thing is i do not need to take the carbon out, I do not need to worry about which medication for my loaches/shrimp but I will need to watch my salt lvls with plants.

The other thing salt does it promotes better gill function, with high heat and a lot of O2 it will help the fish over all.

I rather not use medication, immune systems 100% - if i can get away with it.

[Aquaticfan]

Ich is an organism that has 3 phases to its life cycle. Only one of the 3 phases is vulnerable to salt or any other medication. Raising the Tempurature only speeds these life cycles.. Yes at a certain temp it is possible to kill ich But what that real temp is no one is 100% sure. JeremyTR even your post says 88F you THINK..... is the magic number.

The problem is getting the WHOLE volume of water this temperature, even under the Substrate. (Bare bottom tank is easier). There is also another form of Ich that is resistant to any temperature that would also be safe/not to high for your fish. So Temp isnt always the factor..

The three Phases of Ich

Trophont is the phase that lives on the fish. At first you cannot see it, but within a few days it grows to the white spot that gives this parasite one of its common names. It lives on the fish for several days (longer in cooler water) then falls to the floor of the tank. Medicines do not affect this phase because it is burrowed under the fishes' slime coat. Fish can be infected in their gills, where you cannot see the parasite. This is why a quarantine tank is very important: New fish live in quarantine from your established tank(s) until Ich or other diseases or parasites have been ruled out or treated. Tomont is the phase that reproduces, most often on the floor of the tank. Diligent vacuuming of the floor of the tank can remove a lot of these, and I have even heard of complete cures in a bare bottom tank with daily vacuuming. Meds do not affect this stage. The Ich organism is in this phase for only a day or so at tropical tank temperatures. This phase releases hundreds of free swimming babies. Theront and Tomite are the names given to the babies that swim in the water, looking for a host. This is the phase that is vulnerable to medications and salt.


Raising the temperature will make the Ich go through its life cycle faster, fall off the fish faster and reach the vulnerable stage where meds and salt will kill it.

I think what happens is people dose Salt with raised temps and its the Salt that kills the ich not so much the temps.

[Drowki]

Originally Posted by Aquaticfan

Ich is an organism that has 3 phases to its life cycle. Only one of the 3 phases is vulnerable to salt or any other medication. Raising the Tempurature only speeds these life cycles.. Yes at a certain temp it is possible to kill ich But what that real temp is no one is 100% sure. JeremyTR even your post says 88F you THINK..... is the magic number.

The problem is getting the WHOLE volume of water this temperature, even under the Substrate. (Bare bottom tank is easier). There is also another form of Ich that is resistant to any temperature that would also be safe/not to high for your fish. So Temp isnt always the factor..

The three Phases of Ich

Trophont is the phase that lives on the fish. At first you cannot see it, but within a few days it grows to the white spot that gives this parasite one of its common names. It lives on the fish for several days (longer in cooler water) then falls to the floor of the tank. Medicines do not affect this phase because it is burrowed under the fishes' slime coat. Fish can be infected in their gills, where you cannot see the parasite. This is why a quarantine tank is very important: New fish live in quarantine from your established tank(s) until Ich or other diseases or parasites have been ruled out or treated. Tomont is the phase that reproduces, most often on the floor of the tank. Diligent vacuuming of the floor of the tank can remove a lot of these, and I have even heard of complete cures in a bare bottom tank with daily vacuuming. Meds do not affect this stage. The Ich organism is in this phase for only a day or so at tropical tank temperatures. This phase releases hundreds of free swimming babies. Theront and Tomite are the names given to the babies that swim in the water, looking for a host. This is the phase that is vulnerable to medications and salt.


Raising the temperature will make the Ich go through its life cycle faster, fall off the fish faster and reach the vulnerable stage where meds and salt will kill it.

I think what happens is people dose Salt with raised temps and its the Salt that kills the ich not so much the temps.

You realize you are basically posting the same crap that other people in the same thing, making you seem all intelligent. Ich sucks! and this method is for a natural/healthier/lower stress enviroment for the fish, shrimp/snails, and plants.

You do vaccuum changes/water changes, increase the water - you are basically starving/diluting/killing off the ich in this... sure i can use medication and cure it 1, 2, 3 but you are killing something in the process.. I choose my plants. I like my bacteria, fish, filter media, and all that to stay in one place.

[jeremyTR]

I've googled it and read actual studies but I couldn't remember the number sorry guy but heat is how I killed off my ick problem.

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