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Old 04-03-2012, 09:19 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by Wasserpest View Post

Frank - consider taking your language down a notch. If you keep calling anything that isn't in agreement with your approach "BS" and "idiotic" you (and this thread) will not succeed.
Cheers. It's obvious that Frank knows his stuff and is a very talented aquascaper, but this is all coming off as a bit "high & mighty".
I'm very interested to read what you've got to say, but not if it's written in a condescending manner.
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Old 04-03-2012, 10:26 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by JeffyFunk View Post
In his previous post, Frank commented that people are too caught up with the "what" to buy and not "why" you should buy it.
Yep.

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To me the root of the problem in this "discussion" is that most people haven't used or evaluated the entire ADA line.
Well, I may be one of the very few, but, even those that sell ADA have not done this either, they sell it, it's not a thing that they question. That is understandable. Still, for myself, I like to understand know more about things, so I'll mess with it and test things.

Sometimes my conclusions are good towards a brand, sometimes not.
It's a two way street.

But a nice journal using the products(the buyer can use or not use them, they have free will), is a good thing overall........and part of the TPT community.

Frank and ADG, as well as Amano himself have been fair about some of the products not being "needed".

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Why would that be important? Because this entire thread is supposed to be an avenue as to the *BEST* way to grow aquatic plants, not whatever method works.
This is the problem, there is no best way to grow plants, this is not even the the right question, the question is what method is best suited for a person's goal/s for/with aquatic plants?

If ADA aesthetic is the goal, then this is what they are saying for you to do.
Whether is really helps, well, on some of the stuff, faith seems about all the argument is about, but..the main aspects of the ADA product line, light, tanks, filters, glassware, CO2.......ADA aqua soil, these are the Lion's share of the method.

Folk's seem to get side tracked on these minor additives and think there's some huge trick to them. I'd say the hobbyist and their general habits and routines play a much larger role,: good craftsmanship. ADA espouses this trait again and again. This is the main message, not Penac.

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There's a big difference between saying "this method works" and "this (other) method is the best", esp. when you haven't even used the (other) method.
True, the voice of ignorance knows no bounds
This also is a two edge sword. Vendors can be guilty of this also.

Quote:
Here's an analogy of how *I* think of the ADA method versus the other methods (let's use EI dosing as an example). The ADA Method is the equivalent of Organic Lawn Care and EI dosing is the equivalent of Conventional Lawn Care. Both methods will give you a nice green lawn, but the Organic Lawn Care system is a better method. (If you don't understand this analogy, I would highly suggest reading the book "Teaming with Microbes" by Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis - It will change the way you view organic techniques and conventional fertilizers and methods...)
Huh?? ADA liquid ferts and CO2? No different than EI.
The general method you are suggesting there is the same in fact.. along with good sized water changes. A good/better analogy would be EI vs say a non CO2 approach that is far more sustainable. No water changes, rely on fish waste and soil only. Slower growth/production, but far more sustainable, much more organic, allowing the entire system to interact/natural ecosystem functioning.

If you go this route within a debate/argument/philosophy, then best to go whole hog and not try and have it both ways. You end up contradicting yourself otherwise. It cannot be both "organic" and "inorganic" and you get to call it "organic"

Or natural and unnatural etc.........
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Old 04-03-2012, 10:28 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by Dollface View Post
Actually, I think daily diligence is the main point that Frank is trying to reinforce with this thread. He doesn't really rely so much on the additives as a magic fix-it-all, they're just another tool in his maintenance and dosing regimen. Most of his advice, e.g. consistent water changes, dosing, and filter clearning, dealing with algae sooner rather than later, taking note of the tanks needs and responding to that, isn't about magic ADA hickory smoke bacteria food, it's about just paying attention to your tank and enjoying it.
+1

It taste good on ribs though, hummm hummmhuh!
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Old 04-03-2012, 10:43 PM   #334
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In which people are left wondering about the different tone in the thread.

That has a real application towards the planted aquarium.

Some of you may have wondered how this thread has gone the way it has. There's been a very clear difference in tone - namely from myself.

This has been interpreted in a few different ways, which are all incorrect.

The reason for this line of thought: be warned if you've kept reading up until this point you may have the "ah-ha!" moment.

The NO B.S., Absolutely essential, immensely critical, secret and bag of tricks to growing any plant, at any time, with any setup.

Here's the deal.

Every planted tank, the 'eco-system,' and everything alive and thriving in our tanks follows only one rule. One law.

It is quintessentially Malthusian.

Another, less fun way of explaining it, is that everything follows the law of minimums.

The law of minimums is simple:

1. The organism population will only grow to the available supply of the least available nutrient necessary for survival.

What this means is that if our basic supplement required for growing plants is NPK (there is much more, but please, for the sake of example bear with me):

if N is 3, P is 3 and K is 1 (and if plants require 1 of each), then your plants will only grow to 1, not 3.

This is a fundamental premise of E.I. dosing.

This is also a fundamental premise of ADA dosing.

Because it's the fundamental premise of everything in the planted tank. It's how plants, the bacteria, everything, grows.

There is a difference between the two; and there are reasons for the difference, but it's not so major as to call them separate methods entirely.

One is refined and systemized, the other not so much.

With this snippet of information, you should now begin to understand that there are no multiple ways to skin the cat. They all strive to do the exact same thing.

An Unconventional Example:
Let's take for example this thread. It was first fed on good information. The information is what brought you here. Not a product or a product system.

A good aquascape kept you interested, combined with the information you came back.

But...when did activity explode the most on this thread and the forum?

When there was something controversial. Something that could bring a spark into the conversation. Information combined with Visuals and a flair of drama. If you haven't had the opportunity to see it - by now a page of commentary has been deleted (to highlight how response increased), nothing of value in the deleted posts, but it's a "population" example if you will.

Now, slowly over the course of a few days I let a few things brim. I came out with a bold statement - and flat out said I wouldn't respond to negativity.

Then, followed that up with something slightly bolder. Consequently responses went up. Then finally today we had an explosion of conversation! Emotion going back and forth and the thread had a great deal of energy about it.

This is exactly how the planted tank goes. This is exactly the concert that plays out between the micro-organisms, the plants and the fish / shrimp.

Now if we missed one of those elements, things would die back down, normalize and the thread might even fall a few pages back completely.

If you can understand that example - and how things naturally played their course, then you can do anything in your planted tank.


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Old 04-03-2012, 11:01 PM   #335
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As a reward for bearing with me this long - and for diligently waiting while I prepare further postings on the elements I listed two posts back. I have attached some eye candy for you to view - a sneak peak at the 60-P I'm working on at the gallery.

In regards to the daily updates on the MIni M at home:



I've added in some Amano's to clean up the place a bit. The small amount of diatoms and green algae will be cleaned up in short order. Dosing has remained at 1 Brighty K & 1 Green Brighty Step 1.

Now performing once every 3 day water changes.

I haven't posted a bucket shot in some time - which I will at the next update, but the water is significantly clear at each water change now, which helps to illustrate the difference in algae growth / decaying plant rate between the first week, second week and third weeks. This is an important illustration of why water changes up front are important to long term success.

I will also have the answers to the "quiz," posted up later!

And now, for the teaser.
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Old 04-03-2012, 11:29 PM   #336
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That teaser is looking good, and well placed in the indoor environment.
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Old 04-05-2012, 03:03 AM   #337
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Interesting thread so far. I like the ADA NA style though can't say I've attempted it. Someday I hope to also get a nano rimless.

Is there much remaining to do with this tank besides let it spread, and continue trimming?

How long from "completion" of the scape would you estimate it is? Also - is there a longevity of a scape like this where runners etc keep it from being manageable, or would you say once the carpet finishes filling in you could trim this and keep it looking like its current state for an indefinite period of time?

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Old 04-05-2012, 03:10 AM   #338
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I like it! so nice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 04-05-2012, 08:30 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by Wasserpest View Post
There are lots of opinions in this thread. That is good. However, this tends to cause some unrest and aggressiveness. If you feel you are right and the others are wrong and you just have to prove it you need to step away from this.

Frank - consider taking your language down a notch. If you keep calling anything that isn't in agreement with your approach "BS" and "idiotic" you (and this thread) will not succeed.

I agree with this, in one post he puts down anybody who disagrees with him by saying they can't disagree with him unless they've tried the full line-up of ADA products. Then in the very same post he shows that he hasn't used another product or methodology due to his total ignorance.

Is it not bad form and cause for moderation for giving negative product reviews as he has done multiple times to both competing products and proven methodologies?

In the past three years I've spent thousands of dollars (several hundred on the ADA line-up alone) ADA makes fantastic products and there is no disputing that, but it really is arrogant to say that doing things the "ADA Way" and anybody not using your products and methodology should tear down their tank or not even bother starting the hobby.

If this is how a brand spokesman is going to act towards a hobby that I LOVE I'm going to seriously consider no longer supporting that brand.
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Old 04-05-2012, 09:50 PM   #340
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I agree with this, in one post he puts down anybody who disagrees with him by saying they can't disagree with him unless they've tried the full line-up of ADA products. Then in the very same post he shows that he hasn't used another product or methodology due to his total ignorance.

Is it not bad form and cause for moderation for giving negative product reviews as he has done multiple times to both competing products and proven methodologies?

In the past three years I've spent thousands of dollars (several hundred on the ADA line-up alone) ADA makes fantastic products and there is no disputing that, but it really is arrogant to say that doing things the "ADA Way" and anybody not using your products and methodology should tear down their tank or not even bother starting the hobby.

If this is how a brand spokesman is going to act towards a hobby that I LOVE I'm going to seriously consider no longer supporting that brand.
Just when it seemed the thread was back on track.
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Old 04-05-2012, 10:25 PM   #341
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I wish I didn't have to sell the tank I was going to use to learn ADA...

I really like this thread Frank, thanks again!

I've been learning megatons from Tom Barr and my 30 gal with inert soil .

When I just started was in a horrible state. But now at the end of its scape it is lush colorful and vibrant.
The most important things were to be diligent, master light and gas/dose more than enough to work with The law of the minimum. 50-25% water changes weekly. Tap water.

At the same time, I set up a shrimp tank with no co2, no dosing, very light feeding and akadama drl (inert?). To my surprise some plants looked happier and more colorful (also zero algae). Almost no water changes. DI water.

I'm still trying to understand and learn from this CRS tank:


I did consider the bigger dosed tank "high tech" and the nano "low tech", I guess from now on I will call it "high maintenance or low maintenance".

Just wanted to share.
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Old 04-05-2012, 10:39 PM   #342
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One of Frank and my own, amano's, anyone worth a snots path to scaping........is the evolution.

Pejerrey is lamenting over the loss of an older tank, but think of what you will learn from the next incarnation? Nothing permanent. We might Keep Rift cichlids for 5-10 years, then perhaps breed Plecos, then maybe a reef for 7 years, then Killis for 6 years.

The same is true with Scaping with plants. the longer you stick with it and the effort you put into it, the better you get.

If you see a style you like, admire....then that should be enough motivation.
If you are weak in one area, then address that and work on that area. Do not just work on your strengths.

Many do not understand how to work with the Nature style.
There is little except within the ADA aquajournal(I STRONGLY urge anyone SERIOUS about the NA style to subscribe) and on line, but this is very limited.

I work with Japanese landscaping and living environment and the terrestrial gardening will give many a very good background into the general philosophy and a much wide range discussion of the style and also the craftsmanship that goes into it.

What Frank is suggesting is not much different from the ADA aqua journals and what ADA is suggesting is not much different from Japanese gardening philosophy.

The ADA approach can be extended to Non CO2 tanks, I'm not sure why ADA has not promoted that as much, if at all. This takes longer and more patience is required, but little effort after the set up is needed.
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Old 04-05-2012, 10:45 PM   #343
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Just when it seemed the thread was back on track.
I'm passionate about this hobby and I think it is important that we call out and police those that go out of their way to discourage people from starting a planted tank.

Especially on a thread with so many views. There is no "One Way" to have a successful planted tank because each and every person has their own motivation, budget and end vision. I believe it is important that this hobby remains open to creativity and accessable at every pricepoint.

He isn't selling the positive benefits of his product line, instead he decided to go full negative on other proven products and methods.
Who is he to look down on a child whose first foray into having a planted aquarium is growing an anubias in their Betta tank? To me, this is a major win for the hobby.

He needs to understand that ADA is a very niche market for those of us who want to pay a premium for a premium product. Sell us on that aspect, don't pretend that it is the only way to be successful in the hobby.

If that is the direction ADA marketing is taking, not only will I discontinue buying their product, I will discontinue advocating it to my friends.
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Old 04-05-2012, 10:46 PM   #344
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He isn't selling the positive benefits of his product line, instead he decided to go full negative on other proven products and methods.
Who is he to look down on a child whose first foray into having a planted aquarium is growing an anubias in their Betta tank?
But he's not.
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Old 04-05-2012, 11:11 PM   #345
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If you've learned nothing else, at least take advantage of me in this gem to show me what's what. This may be the most important post in the hobby I've ever made, so read it carefully:

Unfortunately, there has been a vital breakdown in communication. The frame of posting I chose was very specific. It had everything to do with attacking conventional thought.

The assumption, for better or worse, is that by saying the other methods are invalid, that the ADA method is the only method to choose.

This is not the case.

Every common word we use to describe a method - is complete B.S. That would include calling it the "ADA" method.

I use only one method. The one that most successfully grows plants. I also have a great deal of useless expertise in "methods," that do not work.

The framing was an attack on every supposed method. We are all looking for the plant magic bullet. This one method underlies everything as the very foundation.

This may seem like Renegade thinking, but it's the real deal.

Let's summarize (let me again make this clear, there has not, and will not, be any attacks against individuals):

The so-called "ADA" method is B.S.: there's no special, magic ADA juice. There's no automatic-success mechanism with ADA. The only thing that matters is application, which is entirely up to the individual.

The "high-tech" method is B.S.: that's just focusing on the equipment - not the method. Focus on equipment does not equate to growing plants.

The "low-tech" method is B.S.
: By no means does equipment limit your ability to greatly create an awesome layout. Equipment is a tool to "level the learning curve."

The "NPT" method is B.S.: while it focuses more on the theory of methodology, if you are doing it out of necessity - then follow the "true method," if you are doing it out of interest in experimentation - it would be more accurate to call it a style.

Okay, so now you might be really angry at me for saying that your preferred "method," is B.S.

I say these methods are all B.S. for one reason, which has come via a lot of pain and suffering, observation and ultimately experience.

It has come from spending a lot of time banging my head against a wall in the quest to take things to the next level. To master the planted tank.

It is an inherently emotional endeavor, and requires two things: stirred passions and dedication.

That conclusion is easy to say now, hard to see before you arrive at it;

There is only one method. The Method. And it has nothing to do with equipment, brands or limitation. It has everything to do with understanding.

The Principles of The Method:

1.
All organisms are Malthusian in nature. They will grow and invade to the very limits their environment will permit them.

2. Organisms can only grow and duplicate to the extent that the least common denominator is available. E.G. The resource that there is the least of, is the extent to which a plant, bacterium, etc will grow.

3. Everything is cyclical. Everything is utilized in concert to grow and ultimately be recycled. Molecules, minerals and nutrients are taken in and used by organisms, organisms feed other organisms, and the waste product of those organisms feed yet other organisms.
4. The purity of the environment is directly proportionate to how it will grow. The more "x-factors," and toxins you have, the less successful you will be.

5. It is the balance of all these factors that leads to ultimate success. The smallest of details matters.

The Techniques of The Method:

1.
Purity of water. Because our aquariums have a finite amount of water immediately available, we must 'refresh,' the water source as frequently as is possible.

2. Supply in relative abundance all of the factors that lead to proper growth of bacteria, plants and fish. Supply only the proper levels relative to the aquarium's rate of growth.

3.
Trim vigorously - trimming enables new growth to take the place of the old.

4. Daily attention - if you have the time to make a post, you have the time to give a quick check for anything running amok in your tank too.

The Mindset of The Method:

1.
Cultivation and care for the planted aquarium (even the smallest microorganisms) is an enjoyable task, something that's look forward too. There is something irreplaceable in the appearance of a balanced aquarium.

2. Vicious, quick and precise attack on anything that threatens the balance of the aquarium.

3. Constantly seeking new ways to learn and improve. Visualizes success with the aquarium.


Following this methodology, this mindset, means that all others are irrelevant. Because they don't matter - they are parameters set by equipment and predefined 'successes,' rather than the aquascape and the health of the system at large.

This means that, following the principles:

A "low-tech," tank can easily trump any "high-tech," tank.

The "high-tech" tank is irrelevant because it only describes equipment.

The NPT is just a partial application of the whole picture.

The "ADA" method is just a series of techniques and quality brand tools to 'enhance,' The Method.

E.I. Method is only a fertilizer method. It's based on and a part of The Method, just like ADA. They are more similar than different.


I know the path to this point has been a bit controversial. But I hope by now that you've found the value in taking this path, and why this path was taken to arrive at this destination. Emotional energy, getting attention, loud and clear, is an important part in true understanding.

Unfortunately, Pain is a greater motivator than pleasure.
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