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Old 03-16-2012, 10:09 PM   #31
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What is even the point of this post? It seems like we have this additive drama in almost every single thread that Frank talks about them and it's useless. Frank is detailing here how he sets up a tank with the full ADA substrate system, and how it works for him. If you don't want to Believe In The Heart Of the Penacs, Yugi! you don't have to, just use regular old AS that's been proven to grow plants well over and over. Frank says the full system works better for him, and you know what, I believe him. He's only set up almost a dozen tanks using ADA substrate and presumably has a pretty solid comparison point for with and without additives by this point.
You really think those two pictures did any justice?!?! Hahaha what a joke. If he wants to praise the products that's not the best way to do it. Hell, I didn't use any additives and I could take two pictures of my ONE tank and the two sides look just as different. The first pic has freshly planted hc as you can see the plants "clumps" are still there as it hasn't grown in same as the second, while the "additive" picture has a fully grown in mature hairgrass carpet.

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Old 03-16-2012, 10:37 PM   #32
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wow, I dont see the point of flaming here. take from this thread what you will. if you dont believe it, dont follow the thread. I find the information extremely helpful, am I going to go out and buy every ADA product from those pics, probably not, but the nit picking just has no place in a thread like this. The man is taking HIS time to share his experience, take your hate elsewhere
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Old 03-16-2012, 10:42 PM   #33
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Oh wah wah the pc police... Nobody is flaming here, just posting opinions... I just had to read the last three post again and to me it seems like people are just discussing what they see. But hey, its a forum right?!?

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Old 03-16-2012, 10:51 PM   #34
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But it harnesses the power of ions! I LOVE IONS!

Same old argument. For the uninitiated, consider reading this and maybe this or this or this to start with. I think Tom may be tired of carrying the flag for science.
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Old 03-16-2012, 11:08 PM   #35
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+1 booger. I'm a skeptic.

But if anyone wants to do it, then go for it. I will be spending my money elsewhere.

BTW I own 2 ada tanks, both with ada aquasoil.

I do think these threads are very helpful to beginners. Everyone just needs to take everything with a grain of salt in this hobby. It can be tricky at times with what to believe.
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Old 03-16-2012, 11:16 PM   #36
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Yeah, aquasoil is great but yeah.... Hmm, about those ions!!!! Lol

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Old 03-17-2012, 12:56 AM   #37
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Btw your "with additives" "without additives" pictures are a joke, you showed a part of a tank with what looked like hc and a part that may have had no plants and compared it to a tank that obviously has a hair grass carpet...
Those plants behave so differently you can't even compare them.
Yes, they need to consider total biomass, not just root growth alone. Many species have very different root/shoot ratios.

The whole business about long term growth is always a dead ringer.........since few aquarist can not measure measure or determine long term growth differences. Heater cable people tried this same old argument. If there is no difference in the rate of growth, then..........you cannot say much, if it is a subtle thing etc, over long time spans, then by that very definition, it is not a significant factor. This is circle talk marketing.

I consistently sell a lot of wimpy hard to grow plants out of several tanks, the roots look pretty healthy. I've seen AFA's tanks and they have BGA below the glass also on some tanks with all the ADA fixings.

Maybe the CO2 is different, maybe the plant species are different.
This may suggest something to consider further, but that is about it.
If the CO2 is different then the plants from the CO2 low tank will add less O2 to the sediment. More growth= more O2 to the roots.

One reason the cable and the additive folks bother me is a simple fact they do not address the plant's own abilities: they add O2 and everything else they need, the bacteria will establish quite well on their own. That is taking a natural instead of a chemical approach. Maybe some like chemical approaches, I prefer to keep it much simpler.
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Old 03-17-2012, 01:15 AM   #38
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Wow, TBH I wouldn't even blame Frank if he just abandoned this thread now, and the entire forum at this point. No matter what you think of ~magic ADA additives~ or what, he's still bringing a lot of valuable info to the table and he gets attacked with petty grudges over camera phone pictures. You flaunt your ADA tanks and AS, yet still attack an US ADA supplier for what, using and promoting his product line?

If you really want to debate the merits of the additives, calling him condescending and then childishly invoking "the PC police" (Which doesn't even apply to this, jeez) isn't the way to go about it.
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Old 03-17-2012, 01:35 AM   #39
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Wow, TBH I wouldn't even blame Frank if he just abandoned this thread now, and the entire forum at this point. No matter what you think of ~magic ADA additives~ or what, he's still bringing a lot of valuable info to the table and he gets attacked with petty grudges over camera phone pictures. You flaunt your ADA tanks and AS, yet still attack an US ADA supplier for what, using and promoting his product line?

If you really want to debate the merits of the additives, calling him condescending and then childishly invoking "the PC police" (Which doesn't even apply to this, jeez) isn't the way to go about it.
Whoa whoa whoa, no one ever said anything about the information he brings us. No need to put words in peoples mouths, no one attacked him for using his product or marketing it. Go read the words said, is someone not allowed to point out the simple facts that are in the pictures HE uploaded. They are different pictures of different plants used to promote one product and the fact that he made it seem differently is what started his customers to post their feelings. I mean, we are all his customers and therefore should be given straight forward facts. And lastly, me bringing up the pc police had nothing to do with frank, it was to the person who came in saying how we should appreciate what he's doing ect ect when our statements had nothing to do with him in any way.

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Old 03-17-2012, 01:53 AM   #40
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Whoa whoa whoa, no one ever said anything about the information he brings us. No need to put words in peoples mouths, no one attacked him for using his product or marketing it. Go read the words said, is someone not allowed to point out the simple facts that are in the pictures HE uploaded. They are different pictures of different plants used to promote one product and the fact that he made it seem differently is what started his customers to post their feelings. I mean, we are all his customers and therefore should be given straight forward facts. And lastly, me bringing up the pc police had nothing to do with frank, it was to the person who came in saying how we should appreciate what he's doing ect ect when our statements had nothing to do with him in any way.

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If you have legitimate questions about his products as his customers, then, idk, maybe you could have contacted him directly with your possible concerns about them, not publicly whine about it on what's still his personal journal. It's pretty obvious from your vitriol though that you have no intention of buying any of this, so why complain? What's the point? Frank has done a lot of work to clarify the claims that ADA makes about these things, attempting to back it up with his own experiences and anecdotes, yet you're still mocking him with this "Ions" childishness.

He also isn't obligated to post any of this, so yeah, I'd hope that people would appreciate that he's making the effort to be so active and present in the hobby. When was the last time you saw the guys from AFA do a journal for one of their show tanks, demonstrating their process and their techniques?

Really, this whole thing is just disrespectful beyond imagination. Would you go into Tom's tank thread and start ranting about how E.I. is a scam? That's basically what you're doing here.
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Old 03-17-2012, 02:04 AM   #41
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I buys lots of their stuff, and I'm not whining... I contact frank personally first when I buy something... No one told frank he had to do this... Ei is actually proven to work.. need I say more?

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Old 03-17-2012, 02:29 AM   #42
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I buys lots of their stuff, and I'm not whining... I contact frank personally first when I buy something... No one told frank he had to do this... Ei is actually proven to work.. need I say more?

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No, your attitude makes it obvious that any further argument would be pointless.
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Old 03-17-2012, 02:38 AM   #43
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I wonder what frank will be using I'm this tank... Glosso and dhg, riccia perhaps?

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Old 03-17-2012, 02:58 AM   #44
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Maybe all of them, because the tile says mixed carpet.
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Old 03-17-2012, 03:09 AM   #45
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Lol yeah, I see them use the glosso and riccia then dhg a little further back as a shade plant so to speak. We shall see soon enough

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