Planted Discus

[discuspaul]

Please don't be confused here, Bif.
Any de-chlorinator is just that - it basically diffuses the toxicity of chlorine, and to a lesser extent chloramines, which are generally not a problem at any rate.
There is very little, if any, ammonia in tap water, so that's generally not something to be concerned about when using a water conditioner.
Your bio-filtration, by whatever means it may be, will accomplish the task of de-toxifying ammonia & nitrites.
Point here being, there's little need to use an expensive 'conditioner' like Prime, just because it may also have the effect of neutralizing ammonia as well.

[TWA]

Discuspaul I'm just sharing my experience. I've had discus be poisoned by ammonia because I was using something that doesn't get rid of the ammonia. It all depends on the amount of chloramines in the water.

I was using regular dechlorinator, which broke chloramine and put ammonia in the water. It's something to be concerned about when there's extra chloramines in the winter.

Just looking out, as I used to use stuff that wasn't getting rid of ammonia until I woke up to 6 discus laying on the bottom of the tank and swimming upside down.

[discuspaul]

Sorry to hear, TWA, that you woke up to 6 discus laying on the bottom of the tank and swimming upside down, but that may not have been due to the presence of toxic-level ammonia per se, and if it did, it wasn't at all likely to have been caused by using a conditioner other than Prime.
As for a regular de-chlorinator breaking chloramines down and putting ammonia in the water, quite frankly I've never heard of that. I'd like to read the experienced thesis that describes that - perhaps I have something to learn here.
If it was ammonia that affected your fish that way, I seriously suspect it was not from the use of a regular conditioner that somehow managed to produce ammonia from chloramines, but for some other reason and source, such as, just as an example, overfeeding and decomposing food, or some other ammonia-producing occurence, that your bio-filtration level just wasn't up to dealing with at that point in time.
I have honestly never heard of a case of sufficient ammonia in tap water to do what occured in your case, nor of any conditioner producing ammonia by breaking down chloramines - that's news to me. As I said, I'd like to read a scientific report to that effect.
My apologies if I have offended you, but I'm at a loss here as to what you are saying.

[TWA]

Discuspaul, no worried about offending me. Are you aware of what chloramines are? Also, what area are you located in?

It has nothing to do with insufficient water changes, as I change water before I go to bed. Water changed, lights go off. When I woke up to this, I changes more water, believing that, clean water will fix any problem. It did for a while. A few hours later it happened again, and again after I changed more water.

I finally called my local discus breeder and asked if he had seen anything like this, he told me he runs into this problem every winter with his discus, and advised me I needed something to get rid of ammonia. Stop doing water changes for today and dose something that gets rid of ammonia. That's what I did and it solved my issue. Ever since I haven't had any sort of problem. This was discussed on a local forum.

[TWA]

Also I hope not to offend you. I consider our discussions helpful to you, I, and anyone else who reads them. Different experiences, different views. It's good for others as well as us if one of us can teach the other something.

[discuspaul]

Yes, I'm aware of what chloramines are, and that they also do not carry the toxicity to fish that chlorine does, nor have I heard that they 'break down' to produce ammonia.
I'm in Vancouver, B.C. - where the tap water is 7.0 pH or less, quite soft, and with little TDS's. Chlorine, or even chloramines, are not heavily used, even in the winter months (mild winters - very little snow & cold).
Do they treat water in Kansas City in such a way as to throw off a good deal ammonia right out of the tap ?
Even if so, I can't envision Prime being able to deal with that on it's own, and being the sole saving grace in de-toxifying the ammonia you mentioned was the cause of your discus's problems.
However, please lead me to the discussion on this that you mentioned was on another forum - perhaps I have something else to learn here.

[TWA]

In KC they do add that many chloramines to the water come winter. It happens especially during times when there's a lot of water main breaks to keep chlorine in the water so bacteria doesn't live ect ect, as we know. If the chloramine bond is broken, being chlorine and ammonia, and the dechlorinator can take care of chlorine, what's left?

I'll look for the discussions. One of which was just a warning with added chloramines and one was describing my problem with the breeder chiming in later and clarifying the issue.

It wasn't much of a discussion as the aquarists here in KC are well aware of chloramines and the amount KC throws into the water.

Simple way to look at it, chloramine breaks in two. One part is taken care of, the other (ammonia) is left over.

The issue will never be ran into if you're somewhere where the water companies do not throw Chloramine into the water crazy like, as well as if you don't have discus. Most fish will be fine with the elevated amounts of ammonia, while discus will not.

It was an issue a few in the fish club ran into during previous winters, both of which were breeding discus and realized + agreed that this is what happened.

I feel like the toxicity depends solely on the amount of chloramines (which you admit to being very little where you are) and the sensitivity of fish (discus being in question)

If it wasn't discus, I'd be with you, dechlorinator is dechlorinator

Also to add, I was double dosing prime when the ammonia situation came up. I didn't realize the dosing instructions, ha!

[TWA]

Heres a quick write on Chloramines from a member, note he lists the need to remove ammonia after breaking the bond.

http://www.kcfishclub.org/forum/74-w...hloramine.html

I cant find the other posts about it but this gives you an idea of what I'm talking about. I'll keep looking.

One about added chemicals (Not important) and the high level of chloramines in the water

http://www.kcfishclub.org/forum/74-w...ins.html#47254

Maybe its a KC thing!

Basically is there a chance that of theres an added level of chloramines in the water, if that bond is broken and chlorine is taken care of, you dont believe the left over ammonia levels could be enough to prove toxic to a sensitive fish like discus?

[bif24701]

Interesting reading. This is why I love this hobby, so many things to consider and research. It never ends.


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus

[TWA]

Of course if it doesn't get cold and wintry where you are it doesn't matter as you wont have a ton of chloramines

[Kadina]

I just want to thank everyone who has posted in this thread. I've been tossing around the idea of setting up a discus tank for a long time and this thread has been very informative.

[bif24701]

Originally Posted by TWA

Of course if it doesn't get cold and wintry where you are it doesn't matter as you wont have a ton of chloramines

I see, well I live in Phoenix so no, it doesn't get cold. But the water is bad, very. I think I may just get the prime for peace of mind and it seems to be more concentrated


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus

[bif24701]

Best discus dry food and frozen?


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus

[TWA]

I use tetrabits, my discus love them, with frozen blackworms or bloodworms, depending on which I grab. Almost any discus will eat worms, they're a little more picky about dry. Ask whoever you get them from. That way you'll be sure to know what works when you get them!

[Warlock]

i feed them all.. FLAKES, frozen, tetra bits, freeze dried.. and live