UPDATE: IT'S FISH TB. ...Help me diagnose this disease that's killing my fish - Page 7
Planted Tank Forums
Your Tanks Image Hosting *Tank Tracker * Plant Profiles Fish Profiles Planted Tank Guide Photo Gallery Articles

Go Back   The Planted Tank Forum > Specific Aspects of a Planted Tank > Fish


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-03-2012, 01:04 AM   #91
Diana
Planted Tank Guru
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Contra Costa CA
Posts: 7,227
Default

I will see if I can dig up any info on the non-N-cycle bacteria.

Yes, it sounds good to do a fishless cycle, using ammonia, not even fish food or dead shrimp as ammonia source. Then planting, and turning on the UV when the N-cycle is complete.

I like the idea of growing some plants to the emersed stage, then taking cuttings only of the parts that had no direct contact with the water or soil! Even if MB could hang out in plants somewhat, I would be surprised if it was very mobile in plants. Then a quick dip in chlorine or alcohol, then grow out the cuttings...
Diana is online now   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 03-03-2012, 01:41 AM   #92
Diana
Planted Tank Guru
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Contra Costa CA
Posts: 7,227
Default

Here is a pretty long article about using pro-biotics to reduce fish disease. The main focus is on farmed fish, since that is where the money is. However, the concept is valid on a small scale, too (aquariums), the question is where to find the small amount needed.

http://mmbr.asm.org/content/64/4/655.full

later...

OK. here is an example of this sort of product.

http://www.aquameds.com/medications/...ncentrate/faq/
Diana is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2012, 12:10 AM   #93
Diana
Planted Tank Guru
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Contra Costa CA
Posts: 7,227
Default

I am re-reading this thread, and looking into the links more closely.
In post 85 the link (about disinfectants) specifies that glutaraldehyde is very effective (almost at the end of the article).
Glutaraldehyde is the liquid carbon source used as a substitute for Excel.
In low doses it is not toxic to fish.

If you can get gluteraldahyde, treat the tank and everything else with that, then rinse well. Any trace amount left after rinsing is so low it will not be toxic.
MAYBE the plants can tolerate the higher dose, too???
Diana is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2012, 12:50 AM   #94
FlyingShawn
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (4/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 143
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diana View Post
Here is a pretty long article about using pro-biotics to reduce fish disease. The main focus is on farmed fish, since that is where the money is. However, the concept is valid on a small scale, too (aquariums), the question is where to find the small amount needed.

http://mmbr.asm.org/content/64/4/655.full

later...

OK. here is an example of this sort of product.

http://www.aquameds.com/medications/...ncentrate/faq/
Thanks for finding those articles!

After reading through those, I've spent the last couple hours looking for probiotic supplements along those lines. There are a lot of "beneficial bacteria" products out there, but it seems the vast majority of them are either focused on N-Cycle bacteria or on breaking down waste/mulm in the tank ("Liquid Gravel Vac", etc). However, I have found three that seem like they might be what I'm looking for:

The first is the liquid form of the Aqua MedZyme in your second link:
Aqua MedZyme Liquid
At ~$25 for a 16oz bottle, it sounds pricey, but considering it's supposedly enough to treat 48,000 gallons, I suspect it'll expire long before I run out of it. It's primarily designed for Koi environments, but I'm not aware of any reason why it wouldn't also work for a tropical freshwater tank.

The second is made by the "Dr Tim's" brand, which I believe is fairly reputable for their N-Cycle bacterial products (haven't tried them myself, but I seem to recall seeing that name in a positive light before):
Dr Tim's Aquatics Eco-Balance
A ~$14, 16oz bottle is "only" rated for 480 gallons (quite a difference from the stuff above), but it is specifically marketed for freshwater systems. However, I couldn't find any information the actual bacteria it contains or how many different types there are (according to your links, it's important to have a mix), so I don't know as much about it as I do the first stuff.

The third is this:
Tropical Science Immune-Plus
I've never heard of the brand and it gives no information regarding shelf life, so I suspect that it might not be as high-quality a product as the others. However, it does claim to have 5 different species of bacteria and is supposedly enough for 1700 gallons, so I figured I'd mention it even though I suspect the other two are better options.

I still think the "probiotic" idea is a brilliant strategy going forward (for all of my tanks, not just the quarantine), so I'm definitely going to pursue it. I just need to decide on which product to use for it. Thanks again!
FlyingShawn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2012, 01:20 AM   #95
FlyingShawn
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (4/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 143
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diana View Post
I am re-reading this thread, and looking into the links more closely.
In post 85 the link (about disinfectants) specifies that glutaraldehyde is very effective (almost at the end of the article).
Glutaraldehyde is the liquid carbon source used as a substitute for Excel.
In low doses it is not toxic to fish.

If you can get gluteraldahyde, treat the tank and everything else with that, then rinse well. Any trace amount left after rinsing is so low it will not be toxic.
MAYBE the plants can tolerate the higher dose, too???
Wow, I'm floored by your dedication in looking through all of this again!

OverStocked suggested a Glutaraldehyde-based product in the "Heat Kill"-spinoff thread (Anyone with biology knowledge: boiling or baking to kill Mycobacteria/Fish TB?). While I have no doubt that it's very effective, it's also quite pricey and seems to require some very careful handling, so I felt it was probably overkill for my needs.

To jump back to what you said a couple posts earlier about the "airborne growth" plant strategy:
After some further pondering, I had the thought that even if some Myco were to "climb" up on to the dry growth I want to save, it probably wouldn't find any biofilm to hide in. If that's the case, then that second bleach dip you suggested would probably be enough to clean it off once and for all before transferring the plant to the "clean" emersed rig. Even if some were to manage to hang on, I have to assume that it'd be so little as to fall below "ambient" levels (since all of our tanks supposedly have it) and should be no match for a heavily probiotic-saturated tank environment going forward.

All that being said, I'll probably just use that airborne growth strategy on a handful of my harder-to-find plants (like the Willow Leaf Hygro), since I don't have nearly enough room or patience to grow enough of the other plants to fill-out the main tank when the time comes to start it up again.. For the QT, I'll probably just bleach-dip the plants I want to save and put them in the cycled QT without making any further effort to clean them. After that, it'll be up to the UV and probiotics to keep any Myco at bay.
FlyingShawn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2012, 05:16 PM   #96
Diana
Planted Tank Guru
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Contra Costa CA
Posts: 7,227
Default

I would tend to trust the Dr. Tim brand. He is the person who isolated the correct nitrogen cycle bacteria when Marineland started marketing it as Bio Spira.

I cannot be sure if he has gotten on the bandwagon of selling stuff just 'cause it sells or if he is really developing and selling viable options for the aquariums.
Perhaps a carefully worded e mail to him, including a brief history (like I saw you did for the Seachem question) might help. Here is a link to Dr. Tim's web site:

http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/H2O_PU...cts.html#FW_EB

That Tropical Science label sure looks familiar, but it has been a long time since I used it. Here is a link to their site. I am less inclined to trust this one, because I looked at their cycling product (Nitromax) and it has the wrong bacteria. It has been over a decade that the right bacteria were identified. Any company still selling the old strains is not one I would trust.

http://www.tsbiolabs.com/product_p/ip-60.htm
Diana is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2012, 11:11 PM   #97
FlyingShawn
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (4/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 143
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diana View Post
I would tend to trust the Dr. Tim brand. He is the person who isolated the correct nitrogen cycle bacteria when Marineland started marketing it as Bio Spira.

I cannot be sure if he has gotten on the bandwagon of selling stuff just 'cause it sells or if he is really developing and selling viable options for the aquariums.
Perhaps a carefully worded e mail to him, including a brief history (like I saw you did for the Seachem question) might help. Here is a link to Dr. Tim's web site:

http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/H2O_PU...cts.html#FW_EB

That Tropical Science label sure looks familiar, but it has been a long time since I used it. Here is a link to their site. I am less inclined to trust this one, because I looked at their cycling product (Nitromax) and it has the wrong bacteria. It has been over a decade that the right bacteria were identified. Any company still selling the old strains is not one I would trust.

http://www.tsbiolabs.com/product_p/ip-60.htm
I've emailed both Dr Tim's and AquaMeds with specific questions about their products, so we'll just have to see what they say. I suspect that the AquaMeds is a better product overall (just based on the amount of information and research they claim), so my main question for them was if there's any reason it can't be used on a warm-water tropical tank instead of a Koi pond.

Seeing the videos on the Dr. Tim's site about how major institutions (like the Georgia Aquarium) use their products certainly lends them a great deal of credibility in my mind. Like you said, that may not extend to other product lines, but you'd think they'd have major incentive not to risk that reputation.

I think you're right, if Tropical Science is still using the "old" bacteria for the N-Cycle products, that's probably enough reason to doubt their credibility overall. Especially considering the credibility of these other two options, I think it's safe to dismiss them from my consideration.
FlyingShawn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2012, 12:41 AM   #98
unissuh
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 123
Default

Might just add a comment while you're on the topic of nitrifying bacteria - a recent paper suggests that the first step of nitrification may not be bacterially driven at all. Rather, the major ammonia oxidizers could actually be archaea. Expect bacterial products to change accordingly within the next few years I suppose...

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...l.pone.0023281

I'm not sure I'd be looking at nitrification cocktails though - looking at heterotrophic bacteria seems like a better idea. These would be more likely to directly compete with (heterotrophic) Myco than true autotrophic bacteria.
unissuh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2012, 01:01 AM   #99
FlyingShawn
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (4/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 143
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by unissuh View Post
Might just add a comment while you're on the topic of nitrifying bacteria - a recent paper suggests that the first step of nitrification may not be bacterially driven at all. Rather, the major ammonia oxidizers could actually be archaea. Expect bacterial products to change accordingly within the next few years I suppose...

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...l.pone.0023281
Very interesting, thanks for summarizing it for us! (I make no secret that I'm not a biologist, so I would have struggled to understand the article without going into it with the "gist" as you explained it)

Quote:
Originally Posted by unissuh View Post
I'm not sure I'd be looking at nitrification cocktails though - looking at heterotrophic bacteria seems like a better idea. These would be more likely to directly compete with (heterotrophic) Myco than true autotrophic bacteria.
Just a point of clarification: we're not looking at nitrification cocktails in this discussion. Rather, we were using our limited knowledge of that field (that Dr. Tim's research identified the correct bacteria involved in the N-Cycle and Tropical Science are still marketing the incorrect/less-correct ones from the prior understanding) as a ruler by which to judge those companies' scientific credibility when comparing their non-N-Cycle "probiotic" products.

Granted, we still don't know much about what kind of probiotic bacteria these companies are marketing (aside from AquaMed, who claims it's a "specilized bacillus bacteria"), but we aren't specifically looking at nitrification products either.

Last edited by FlyingShawn; 03-06-2012 at 01:02 AM.. Reason: clarification
FlyingShawn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2012, 02:02 AM   #100
unissuh
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 123
Default

Apologies - I obviously got the wrong impression (that you were looking for nitrification products)! I'm not going to be much help on products that are available, but your approach in picking reputable companies sounds perfectly reasonable for me. If you were in AU, I'd recommend Aquasonic, a local company which makes high class products but strangely has a very low key reputation amongst hobbyists.

An additional small suggestion for when you start up the next tank - if you can find someone who has a well established tank already running, get 'em to do a good gravel vacc and dump all the mulm in your (clean) substrate. I think you will find that you can transfer a heck of a lot of beneficial microflora this way. May help if you have them all in there from the get go.
unissuh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2012, 07:00 PM   #101
FlyingShawn
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (4/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 143
Default

Just heard back from Dr. Tim's.

Following a brief explanation of my situation, I asked them three specific questions about their product:

1) Does Eco-Balance contain multiple strains of bacteria? If so, how many?
2) After several months of dosing, are the beneficial bacteria in this product able to form a stable self-sustaining population or does the tank require regular dosing to sustain these populations?
3) Has any Mycobacterium-specific research been done to see if these probiotic bacteria have a competitive advantage against it when competing for resources?

Here is their response:
Quote:
Hello Mr __________:

Thanks for your interest in our products.

Our probiotic for freshwater has 6 species for saltwater/reef it has 8 species.

Our probiotic strains were isolated by us from aquaria and are grown by us - almost no other company in the Aquatics Industry can claim this.

The beneficial bacteria do not form self-sustaining populations because they are eaten by protozoa and other micro-organisms so regular dosing is necessary.

Regarding mycobacterium specifically - at this point there is no published research but hopefully before the end of the year there will be a paper or two.

Hope this answers your questions but always available should you have more

Cheers
DrTim's Aquatics
FlyingShawn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2012, 05:31 AM   #102
mjbubbles
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 50
Default

FS, thanks so much for your dedication in sharing all this with us. I really appreciate it. I'm sorry you've had to go through the experience, but your sharing will help others who find them selves in the same boat.

Having just euth'd a white cloud mtn minnow with what appears to be mycobacterium, I am concerned about the other fish. I'll be keeping an eye on them and returning to this thread to check on your progress as well. I hope the probiotics and all your other approaches help and you have no more sick fish.

Take care,
mj
mjbubbles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2012, 11:45 PM   #103
FlyingShawn
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (4/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 143
Default

I haven't abandoned you! I'm really sorry that I haven't posted any updates lately, I've been really busy at work and what little time I've had at home has been occupied with a couple major projects (like this one!) and trying to relax a little every once in a while..

There hasn't been much to report either: I've been working on sterilizing a lot of various pieces of equipment and decorations, building my "Clean" and "Dirty" emersed rigs, and setting up the 20gal permanent QT we've spent so much time discussing.

I'll try to make up for the delay with a few pictures of what I've been doing...

First off, I set up my "Clean" emersed rig. This one will only be used for plants that have never been exposed to the TB (at this point that list is limited to the plants that were in my jury-rigged and soon-to-be-decommissioned setup for growing HC emersed before setting up the big tank last time around). Eventually, I'll also move over the "deemed-clean" cuttings from the "Dirty" emersed rig, like Diana and I were talking about earlier.

It's made using a Sterilite tub, cut-up sections of water bottles, and a mix of artificial and natural lighting. I punctured small holes in the bottom of each bottle so that the water could get in and lined one wall of the rig with aluminum foil to try to capture as much natural sunlight from the window as possible. I don't know if the foil is making any real difference to speak of, but what can it hurt to try? Originally, I used the body from a Finnex 26w clip light for the artificial side of the lighting, but between a couple weeks of a lot of clouds and the weakness of the light getting through the lid, the plants were hanging on with little-to-no growth to speak of.



So, I decided to build a new lighting system that would work better for this rig. I purchased a cheap incandescent hood for a 10gal tank and a couple of Walmart fluorescent aquarium lights, mounted the fixture from the hood to the inside of the lid, and added a couple of combination reflectors/bulb protectors made out of water bottles and aluminum foil. Here's how it turned out:




Sorry, I don't have any recent pictures of the interior of the rig, but after a couple of weeks of mostly-sunny days and the new lighting, the growth inside has absolutely exploded! I've used these same bulbs before in a Walstad-style 10gal tank and was also really impressed with how well the plants did under them in there.

Speaking of that 10gal and those other bulbs, I also just finished the "Dirty" emersed rig for the plants I want to preserve from the contaminated tanks. I've cut the bottles a little taller than normal and made clippings of the plants so that they (mostly) fit within the height of each bottle. Assuming they successfully transition to emersed-mode and grow well, I'll make cuttings from the parts that grow out the top of each bottle and move them into the Clean emersed rig (after a quick bleach dip, to be safe). Here's how it looked after I set it up a few days ago:



I'm mainly using it to grow the Willow Leaf Hygrophilia that I like so much (and haven't seen elsewhere), but I had extra room in the tank and decided to toss a couple other plants in there just to see how they'd do emersed.

The last thing to update you on is that I've just begun cycling the 20gal permanent QT tank. I set it up on Friday, added a little ammonia, and then poured in Tetra SafeStart on Saturday afternoon. I've tried using SafeStart before without a huge amount of success, but after reading through this Q&A with Tetra I figured out that my water conditioner was likely also killing off the SafeStart bacteria by detoxing the ammonia solution it comes in:
SafeStart Questions Answered

So far the cycle is off to a very promising start. When last I measured it, it'd converted 1ppm of ammonia into nitrate within the span of 6 hours! My plan is to keep dosing ammonia until the tank is very-heavily cycled, put in plants, and then move the fish over from the big tank. Then I'll be able to start tearing down/sterilizing the 52gal itself.

The teardown of the 52gal will be a hugely time-consuming project and I have vacation later this month (which I'm hoping to get out of town for), so updates will continue to be infrequent for the time being. In the meantime, I continue to welcome any ideas or suggestions you guys may have!
FlyingShawn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2012, 11:55 PM   #104
FlyingShawn
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (4/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 143
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjbubbles View Post
Having just euth'd a white cloud mtn minnow with what appears to be mycobacterium, I am concerned about the other fish. I'll be keeping an eye on them and returning to this thread to check on your progress as well.
Good luck MJ, I really hope that your minnow had something(anything!) else!

I think I've concluded that the 2nd worst thing about Myco is that it's so hard to diagnose and, once you learn it exists, you're always paranoid that your fish may have it (the worst thing of course being that it can also infect you!).

I forgot to add earlier that the all remaining fish still look healthy. As before, there's one female Odessa Barb that I keep thinking might be in the early stages, but she doesn't seem to be getting any worse and I think my mind is just playing tricks on me.

Never heard back from AquaMed, so I've decided to go ahead and purchase the Dr. Tim's probiotic product and will start dosing that on the permanent QT once it finishes cycling.
FlyingShawn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2013, 09:19 PM   #105
wkndracer
Planted Tank Guru
 
wkndracer's Avatar
 
PTrader: (68/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Citrus County,Florida
Posts: 6,180
Default

Thought I would go ahead and add some current information and links I've gathered into this thread rather than have another floating on the forum. I won't call it "fish TB" though.

The person leading me through the information has told me that's yesterday's best guess and not a correct term to use.
Links with correct information:
https://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/even...factsheet/231/
https://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/even...factsheet/235/
https://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/even...factsheet/238/
http://sfrc.ufl.edu/fish/outreach/extpubs/
http://www.peter.unmack.net/archive/...ug99/0117.html
http://z7.invisionfree.com/MTSA/ar/t24.htm
http://www.tnfish.org/FishDiseasesPa...acteriosis.pdf

Information can be found under the tab “Health Services” on this site.
There’s a lot of good information there including how to produce clean fish.
(Unfortunately they also call myco fish T.B. in one or two places.)
http://zebrafish.org/zirc/home/guide.php
http://zebrafish.org/zirc/health/dis...s%20(Fish%20TB)

within this reply I've provide all the best primary information reference I have been given that’s not copy write restricted.
__________________
The Fraternity of Dirt
If at first you don't succeed,,, keep kicking it
RubberSideDownOnTheLanding,
2-75g planted, 5-55g planted, 5-20g planted, 110g w/30g sump, 8-10g, Refugium, doghouse/newbie
2012 update adding table top pleco pans & a 90g (Nutz)
wkndracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 05:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Planted Tank LLC 2012