Anyone with biology knowledge: boiling or baking to kill Mycobacteria/Fish TB?
Planted Tank Forums
Your Tanks Image Hosting *Tank Tracker * Plant Profiles Fish Profiles Planted Tank Guide Photo Gallery Articles

Go Back   The Planted Tank Forum > General Planted Tank Forums > General Planted Tank Discussion


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-10-2012, 04:35 AM   #1
FlyingShawn
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (4/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 143
Default

Anyone with biology knowledge: boiling or baking to kill Mycobacteria/Fish TB?


The short version of the story is that my fish are confirmed to be infected with Mycobacterium Marinum (aka "Fish TB") and I'm looking at a full-system teardown and nuke. For the tank and filter system, I'll be using a chemical warfare protocol (high-concentration bleach, then Lysol, then 70% isopropyl alcohol), but am afraid a chemical strategy would be damaging to decorations/lava rock/driftwood. Will heat work?

It seems to be an accepted procedure to sanitize driftwood by boiling or baking it, but I have not been able to find a reliable answer on if it'll work on Mycobacteria.

By Googling "heat kill mycobacterium" or "heat killed mycobacterium marinum" I can find a number of scholarly articles (example: The efficacy of the heat killing of Mycobacterium tuberculosis), but they primarily seem to focus either on heat-killing laboratory samples in a way that doesn't damage their DNA or "heat inactivation," where they aren't dead, but also aren't able to reproduce.

Either of the above answers would seem to imply that my heat strategy would be effective, but my biology knowledge is extremely limited and I need input from people who might actually know what they're talking about or at least have the background to properly interpret articles like the one above.

I've posted some of these questions in the thread detailing the full-saga of this problem (UPDATE: IT'S FISH TB. ...Help me diagnose this disease that's killing my fish), but I'm hoping that this thread will get some fresh input on the matter. Thanks!
FlyingShawn is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 02-10-2012, 05:14 AM   #2
OverStocked
Planted Tank Guru
 
OverStocked's Avatar
 
PTrader: (76/94%)
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SoDak
Posts: 10,732
Default

The decorations/lava rock/wood will be fine with the chemicals. I highly recommend Metricide 14, as well, which is used as an excel replacement by many here. It is a surgical disinfectant

Metricide 14 has a TB kill time of 3 minutes. Any parts you're not attached to should be disposed of. Substrate, for instance.
OverStocked is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2012, 05:39 AM   #3
FlyingShawn
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (4/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 143
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OverStocked View Post
The decorations/lava rock/wood will be fine with the chemicals. I highly recommend Metricide 14, as well, which is used as an excel replacement by many here. It is a surgical disinfectant

Metricide 14 has a TB kill time of 3 minutes. Any parts you're not attached to should be disposed of. Substrate, for instance.
Wow, that stuff is PRICEY!! While the 3 minute TB kill time is certainly attractive, I simply can't justify $28/gal when I have this much to clean (52gal main tank, plus multiple smaller tanks)

Regardless of which chemical I use, I'm still concerned about it soaking into driftwood or the lava rocks and either taking excessively long to soak back out or potentially being toxic to the tank.

The substrate is MTS capped with Flourite. Seachem actually recommends boiling Flourite as a way of sterilizing it. So, if I can confirm that heat-killing will work, doing so would save me a substantial amount on replacing enough Flourite for a 52gal tank!
FlyingShawn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2012, 05:46 AM   #4
OverStocked
Planted Tank Guru
 
OverStocked's Avatar
 
PTrader: (76/94%)
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SoDak
Posts: 10,732
Default

In a spray bottle that 1 gallon woudl last you all day. Look it up on dealmed. Boiling sanitizing, but does not sterilize. It requires an autoclave to sterilize.
OverStocked is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2012, 06:03 AM   #5
FlyingShawn
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (4/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 143
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OverStocked View Post
In a spray bottle that 1 gallon woudl last you all day. Look it up on dealmed. Boiling sanitizing, but does not sterilize. It requires an autoclave to sterilize.
For cleaning the tanks themselves, a spray bottle would work. However, I wouldn't trust a spray-application for getting into all of the little pores of lava rock or the driftwood. Regardless, I'd still be concerned about toxic chemicals remaining in the rocks and driftwood after I was done.

After doing a little reading, it seems that dry heat also works for sterilizing, which takes me back to the other option I mentioned of using the oven to bake these materials.
FlyingShawn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2012, 07:53 PM   #6
FlyingShawn
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (4/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 143
Default

unissuh said this in the original thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by unissuh View Post
Heat will probably knock it off - marinum is a low temp bug, not as temp tolerant as some others in the genus AFAIK. Boil it for a while and it will probably be fine. Wood and rocks are fine with this or soaking in alcohol, I'd ditch your substrate and plants or keep them in a known contaminated system because I don't think it's worth the effort of disinfecting to a satisfactory degree.
I've bolded the key part: as far as he (and I) know, marinum is a low-temp bug. At least on my part, that's only a semi-educated guess, so I'm really hoping to find someone on here who can confirm that with some confidence/authority.

Please chime in if you have any of the education/knowledge to help me figure this out!
FlyingShawn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2012, 08:43 PM   #7
mistergreen
No more Bow ties
 
mistergreen's Avatar
 
PTrader: (13/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 13,963
Default

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycobacterium_marinum

Quote:
The inhibition of growth of M. marinum at 37C
I'm pretty sure 100C will kill it.
mistergreen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2012, 08:58 PM   #8
Sindawe
Algae Grower
 
Sindawe's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 10
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mistergreen View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycobacterium_marinum



I'm pretty sure 100C will kill it.
A quick search turns up this article that indicates Mycobacterium marinum is a spore forming organism.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2705590/

Its been awhile since I worked in the Biosciences, but IIRC you're going to need to autoclave soft materials like drift wood at 121 Celcius, 15 PSI pressure for not less than 20 minutes to get effective sterilzation of spores.
Sindawe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2012, 09:12 PM   #9
mistergreen
No more Bow ties
 
mistergreen's Avatar
 
PTrader: (13/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 13,963
Default

We're not going to find an autoclave cheaply. Try a pressure cooker.
mistergreen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2012, 09:16 PM   #10
mistergreen
No more Bow ties
 
mistergreen's Avatar
 
PTrader: (13/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 13,963
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingShawn View Post
Regardless of which chemical I use, I'm still concerned about it soaking into driftwood or the lava rocks and either taking excessively long to soak back out or potentially being toxic to the tank.
It's also toxic to you. You need training to handle the stuff.
mistergreen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2012, 09:31 PM   #11
Chlorophile
Wannabe Guru
 
Chlorophile's Avatar
 
PTrader: (5/100%)
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: State of Emergency
Posts: 1,245
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mistergreen View Post
It's also toxic to you. You need training to handle the stuff.
And let me tell you those training videos are awful.
I had to get my pesticide handler/worker training a few weeks ago and then I decided never to handle pesticides because they made it clear that you're going to get sick and get cancer and get nerve damage =[
__________________
Chlorophile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2012, 09:41 PM   #12
kwheeler91
Wannabe Guru
 
kwheeler91's Avatar
 
PTrader: (19/100%)
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Port Clinton, OH
Posts: 1,138
Default

I would ditch all things except the tank and filter housings, sterilize tank and filters, replace media and everything else including substrate, wood, plants, fish. I know its a pain but I have heard fish tb can be contracted by humans. Even if thats not the case you dont want a reoccurence once you get set up again. There are many generous members here who might be able help you get back on your feet.
kwheeler91 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2012, 12:20 PM   #13
DogFish
Planted Tank Guru
 
PTrader: (33/100%)
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Gone
Posts: 5,988
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OverStocked View Post
....Any parts you're not attached to should be disposed of. Substrate, for instance.


I'd bleach out the tank & filter. I can't believe much would survive a boil or a bake at 200 degrees.

Sometimes practical is the better path than OCD. If you need to spend $30 in meds& chemicals to save a $3 pc of drift wood, the math on that really doesn't make much sense.
DogFish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2012, 01:23 PM   #14
mallorieGgator
Algae Grower
 
mallorieGgator's Avatar
 
PTrader: (2/100%)
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Gainesville, Fl
Posts: 101
Default

Unfortunately, heat as in boiling or baking won't work. You would have to autoclave everything (121.21 degrees celcius) for about 90 minutes to be 100% sure you killed it. If it forms spores, you will have to be careful about even using chemicals as some bacteria's spore can actually resist things such as bleach and alcohol. I know with bacillus bacteria they form spores and contaminate a lot of things in the micro lab I used to work in. If we heated a sample to less than 81 celcius, then bacillus would live in a spore form but everything else that was non-spore forming would die.
mallorieGgator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2012, 01:40 PM   #15
DogFish
Planted Tank Guru
 
PTrader: (33/100%)
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Gone
Posts: 5,988
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mallorieGgator View Post
Unfortunately, heat as in boiling or baking won't work.
This seems to contradict that http://textbookofbacteriology.net/control_3.html

I can understand the consistency & effectiveness of the autoclave. I don't understand without documented study of how to destroy Mycobacterium marinum, how can we say that Boiling at 220 or heat in a oven at 200 is absolutely not going to work?
DogFish is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 04:04 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Planted Tank LLC 2012