UPDATE: IT'S FISH TB. ...Help me diagnose this disease that's killing my fish - Page 3
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Old 12-07-2011, 01:56 PM   #31
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Do you have a plan on mixing the flu?
The powder is a PITA to get into solution without premixing.
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Old 12-07-2011, 03:34 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wkndracer View Post
Do you have a plan on mixing the flu?
The powder is a PITA to get into solution without premixing.
I guess I hadn't put too much thought into it. Do you think it would work to put it in a large Ragu bottle about 4/5 full of water, seal, and shake vigorously? I could potentially mix half of it at a time if it's as bad as you're saying.

Last edited by FlyingShawn; 12-07-2011 at 03:34 PM.. Reason: Clarified sentence
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Old 12-11-2011, 12:51 AM   #33
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You were right: that stuff is a PAIN to get into solution. Even with my trick of premixing 1/4 Tsp at a time in a Ragu bottle, I still spent the next day and a half stirring the top of the water to try to mix it in.

I've just finished the first 3-day Flub treatment and started the second stage (5-7 day) treatment. Unfortunately, the Odessa seems to be continuing to go downhill rather than improving. He still has a healthy appetite (although seems to spit food out more than the others), but he seems to still be losing weight.

Also, there's a small area on his side where he seems to be missing scales and the white-spot on his forehead is now more of a grey color and has raised edges (maybe the outer white layer of his skin at that spot fell off?). In some ways, it's reminiscent of hole-in-the-head disease, but I'm wondering if that would just be a secondary infection due to whatever this primary issue is.
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Old 12-11-2011, 12:53 AM   #34
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Try adding some sodium hydroxide to get it dissolved....

Mix 40g naoh with 1L of water then add it drop by drop to the dry powder...then dilute the whole thing into some distilled water.

Otherwise you could make a large batch of very dilute solution and perform a water change with the treated water (this method is by far safer and easier lol).
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Old 12-11-2011, 03:49 AM   #35
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Dosing into my tanks a HOB method works if you have one. Place the meds behind a floss panel and the water flow will break it into solution in about 2 days. Getting the flu into solution and then into the water column is the biggest challenge of applying the treatment.

I settled on a combination of heat and alcohol after contact with Dr. Harrison.
Dosed dry the first time it took days for it to stop floating in the tank on the waters surface.

Alcohol (vodka) is mixed into the measured dose in a glass container. Only enough to make a paste or slurry out of the flu powder around 1ml more or less, just enough to wet it. Heating a cup of water to boiling in the microwave I wait until the boil settles then add the water in on top of the slurry. Some foaming occurs during the mixing but the majority of the material mixes very well doing this. The liquid is milky in the mixing cup and the tank becomes milky / cloudy but the dilution created by the tanks total volume seems to allow the chemicals to be absorbed into solution and remain suspended by all the evidence following a treatment. My tanks are clear the following morning. Fish have recovered every time I've used the treatment with the exception of two long infested adults. Those fish died with a bloody discharge seeping from the vent. Assuming to much internal damage due to long term exposure to the parasites is my belief. Those losses happened during initial treatment of my tanks when first learning about Flubendazole.

Many find the information being collected in my quarantine thread to be helpful. (this is posted there)
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Last edited by wkndracer; 02-29-2012 at 02:11 PM..
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Old 12-11-2011, 04:35 AM   #36
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Thanks for the advice guys! As I said, I've already put the 2nd dose into the main tank (and will just have to keep stirring over the next couple days), but I'll definitely keep these ideas in mind when using it in the future. That HOB method sounds especially easy for dosing my new arrivals in QT.
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Old 12-16-2011, 05:19 AM   #37
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DISASTER!!

The second dose of Flub is still going (nearly over) in the main tank (and everything seems fine, which makes the following that much more baffling):

I decided to use the flub on the new arrivals in my QT tank, as recommended in wkndracer's QT thread above. The QT is a 10gal mostly-bare tank (has some colored-glass pebbles covering the bottom, a couple of fake plants, and some frogbit floating about) with a heater and Tetra internal filter (cycled media from another tank). In QT, I had five ~2" Rainbows (3 Bosemani, 2 Turquoise) that I've had for over a week and were doing excellently by every measure I have (great color, appetite, activity level, normal poop, etc). 50% WC's were done every 2-3 days, with ammonia staying consistently low (not quite zero on my continuous-indication meter, but well below the next increment of 0.05ppm). I was not testing nitrite or nitrate because of the frequency of the WC's and how well the fish were doing.

Last night I did a 90% WC (per the flub instructions) and dosed the flub into the tank (may have been slightly overdosed, but by a really tiny amount like a 9.5-10gal dose in ~9gal of water volume). Took a while to get the flub to dissolve, but it did.

Here's where it gets weird:

On my main tank, after the flub dissolves, the water is clear. After the flub dissolved in the QT, the water was cloudy.

By morning, the water was still cloudy, but the rainbows seemed ok (however, they didn't have much of an appetite when I fed them). Charlie's instructions for the flub say to have "live wiggling or jumping food" for the fish as they recover, so I suspected that flub might cause a loss in appetite and began to wonder if I was doing something wrong with dosing the main tank, not that something was wrong in the QT.

When I got home from work this evening, I noticed the Rainbows were swimming at the top of the still-cloudy water and got concerned. I was trying to figure out if I should abort the treatment and do a WC or if I had time to post a thread and ask about it.

45 minutes later, I saw two rainbows laying upside-down on the substrate and not moving. I immediately jumped to action by netting all 5 fish and putting them into a guppy tank nearby, but it was too late for the two on the bottom. BTW, they look completely fine, even had good coloration when they died. The other three are stressed, but seem to be bouncing back.

A closer look at the water shows that it's not just cloudy, but there are long white stringy filaments floating about and clinging to the outlet of the filter (you can see it hanging off the fake plant in the picture). It's almost like a fungus you'd see grow on food left at the bottom of the tank, but there's way too much of it and it's too long to have grown overnight. None of this stuff was in the tank when I did the WC last night!

The presence of the white-stuff and how dense the cloudiness is leads me to doubt that it's a bacterial bloom from the large WC (and the slight bloom I had when I started the QT was far less than this). UPDATE: I just did a test on the water and couldn't even detect a trace of nitrite.

What could this be?! If it's related to the flub, I'm going to be far more hesitant to use it in the future.
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Last edited by FlyingShawn; 12-16-2011 at 05:37 AM.. Reason: Update
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Old 12-16-2011, 05:59 AM   #38
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Wow and sorry to read this reported. Plz send Charles an email and ask him what he thinks but it looks like the dose was higher simply based on the amount of clouding captured in the picture. Every time I've dosed flu the tank has clouded but cleared overnight and the effect on water clarity was more a haze and not the heavy clouding I see here.
Did you have an air stone in the tank?
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Old 12-16-2011, 06:12 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by wkndracer View Post
Wow and sorry to read this reported. Plz send Charles an email and ask him what he thinks but it looks like the dose was higher simply based on the amount of clouding captured in the picture. Every time I've dosed flu the tank has clouded but cleared overnight and the effect on water clarity was more a haze and not the heavy clouding I see here.
Did you have an air stone in the tank?
That's part of why I'm so baffled.

The dose being too high would explain the cloudiness (but considering there's zero haze in my main tank, this isn't the magnitude of effect one would see from a maybe-10% OD) or a lack of O2 suffocating the fish would explain the deaths (since there was no air stone, just the HOB), but neither would fit the explosive-growth of the white stringy material.

There's enough of it covering the bottom of the tank that I suspect it's the main cause of the cloudiness, but I can't figure out what it could be that it would take over the tank that quickly.
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Old 12-16-2011, 02:58 PM   #40
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Five 2" Rainbows is not an insane number of fish but I don't have enough information on whats happened here to do anything but guess.
(and I've thought about it since reading the post)

What is your water source? Is it treated tap, was it aged? Did the large WC done pre-treat go normally?
The stringy material possibly released slim coat off the fish? Stressed fish can produce a ton of slime and any ammonia reading is always a bad thing.
7days plus with low ammonia readings mentioned did it spike at the end after adding the flu and the WC? Parameters can flip fast on small tanks and fungus growth can be explosive covering huge areas overnight so I wouldn't rule that out completely either.

again sorry you lost fish
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Old 12-16-2011, 03:35 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingShawn View Post
That's part of why I'm so baffled.

The dose being too high would explain the cloudiness (but considering there's zero haze in my main tank, this isn't the magnitude of effect one would see from a maybe-10% OD) or a lack of O2 suffocating the fish would explain the deaths (since there was no air stone, just the HOB), but neither would fit the explosive-growth of the white stringy material.

There's enough of it covering the bottom of the tank that I suspect it's the main cause of the cloudiness, but I can't figure out what it could be that it would take over the tank that quickly.
WOW! I'm surprised as well and everything doesn't fit together.
The drug does scavenge Oxygen.
How about aeration and tank temperature? Do you keep the water surface moving?

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Old 12-16-2011, 11:01 PM   #42
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After considerable thought and some feedback from Charles, my working theory is that suffocation was the cause of death of the fish. I couldn't find it in any of the articles or instructions that have been linked to, but apparently flub is an "oxygen scavenger."

I think what happened is that the filter on the QT (a Tetra internal model, I think it's the 30i) provides adequate circulation to aerate the water for the fish, but not enough for the fish+flub (especially at higher dosage levels, which leads me to the next point).

I also found out from Charles that the flub instructions linked to on wkndracer's QT thread are outdated, because since publishing them he's switched to a different supplier and is now selling flub in a 10% concentration, rather than 5% as before (he's currently working on an updated set of instructions to give out). Because of that, I ended up dosing my tanks at approximately 2x the normal amount (he mentioned that it's difficult to OD flub because it drops out of solution quickly when the temperature drops).

My main tank is still fine, with clear water and healthy occupants, but the oxygenation rate is substantially higher since it's only half full and my canister outflow is spraying against the back wall of the tank about 6 inches above the water level. The QT however, since it probably only had adequate aeration to begin with, wasn't able to cope with the oxygen scavenging level of a 2x flub dose (BTW, both tanks are kept at 78F).

So, the moral of the story: when dosing flub, ALWAYS use an airstone (even if aeration is normally adequate). Charles, please include this point in your new instruction set.

I still can't explain the white stuff, but wonder if it might be related to a mass death of the nitrifying bacteria due to the O2 levels.

I'll keep you posted on the progress of the main tank.
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Old 12-17-2011, 03:27 PM   #43
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What was linked in my QT thread were articles published online by Charles as you say in your post. After reading your last post and what is the probable cause of your losses I reviewed all my posts in that thread with intent on removing ANYTHING that could cause harm or misunderstanding.

In post #18 I did detail what I settled on doing to aid in mixing flubendazole. Reviewing my thread I found he (Charles Harrison, Ph.D.) has already updated the linked information dated 12/16/2011. Included in it also is additional mixing instructions that all (imo) will find helpful.

I am NOT a vet or have I ever attended any medical training classes other than basic first aid and CPR training. Included in my QT thread it's stated that what I shared was based on my personal experiences and input mainly from breeder related websites. That information was spread out within the posts made. I have added an edit to the opening post of the thread in hope of avoiding misunderstandings.

I am truly sorry that trying to share information that I learned through hard lessons has led another person to deal with killing they're pets.
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Old 12-17-2011, 04:36 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wkndracer View Post
What was linked in my QT thread were articles published online by Charles as you say in your post. After reading your last post and what is the probable cause of your losses I reviewed all my posts in that thread with intent on removing ANYTHING that could cause harm or misunderstanding.

In post #18 I did detail what I settled on doing to aid in mixing flubendazole. Reviewing my thread I found he (Charles Harrison, Ph.D.) has already updated the linked information dated 12/16/2011. Included in it also is additional mixing instructions that all (imo) will find helpful.

I am NOT a vet or have I ever attended any medical training classes other than basic first aid and CPR training. Included in my QT thread it's stated that what I shared was based on my personal experiences and input mainly from breeder related websites. That information was spread out within the posts made. I have added an edit to the opening post of the thread in hope of avoiding misunderstandings.

I am truly sorry that trying to share information that I learned through hard lessons has led another person to deal with killing they're pets.
Please don't take any offense wkndracer: I never meant to imply that you had any role/blame for what happened in any way, shape, or form. I only meant to convey that you linked to the instructions Charles had posted (which were accurate at the time) and that in the time since you made the post, he's changed suppliers and the instructions had changed (which you would have no way of knowing).

Nor to I blame Charles: he'd included a quick summary of the instructions in an email, but I didn't notice the tiny detail of a change in recommended dosage (from 1/4 TSP per 5 gal to 1/4 TSP per 20 gal, which I'll admit I don't quite understand since he only went from 5% to 10%, unless he's also decided a weaker dose is equally effective). He had no way of knowing that I'd use the instructions linked to from your thread, so I wouldn't have expected him to say not to use them.

The responsibility in both cases is mine alone.

I wanted others to know that those instructions were out of date so that they wouldn't follow them like I did and so that they'd know that Charles was working on updating them. I also wanted others to know that flub is an O2 scavenger, since neither set of instructions mentioned it and I thought it an important detail. From now on, I'm always going to use an airstone when medicating (and even when not medicating on the QT) to ensure that aeration is never again a variable at play.
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Old 12-17-2011, 05:47 PM   #45
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no offense at all my friend. I just went back and made certain that I had the information posted in that QT thread as clear as possible and added a disclaimer.
There are countless variables in this hobby and nobody ever knows all of it, living is learning.
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