UPDATE: IT'S FISH TB. ...Help me diagnose this disease that's killing my fish - Page 2
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Old 12-02-2011, 02:17 AM   #16
wkndracer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inkmaker View Post
Panacur is Fenbendazole not Flubendazole. Flubendazole is absorbed by the skin and gills of the fish and does not have to be eaten to be effective.

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Old 12-02-2011, 02:18 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by sewingalot View Post
I strongly, strongly, strongly (I can't emphasize this enough) recommend against fenbendazole. I killed at least 43 fish using half the dosage recommended by wkndracer. I had mistaken flubendazole for the same as fenbendazole. You can see the damage here (http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1342425-post1341.html), how it doesn't disolve and also if you continue reading (back up a few pages for the beginning of the deaths), you'll see that it happened within hours and the deaths didn't stop for days. I lost almost everyone of my fish due to using this.

To the OP, that does look at lot like internal parasites, but the sunken stomach makes me worried that it's TB. Not to be gross, but how is their poop? Is it white and stringy (a good sign of pests) or is it normal looking?
Just to clarify, do you think Fenb is just that dangerous that is should be avoided or do you mean you used Flub dosing guides with Fenb by mistake (so you just have to be careful to keep them straight)?

I haven't had the opportunity to observe their poop due to my work schedule and not knowing what to look for. I'm off tomorrow, so I'll catch him in a breeder box, feed him, and keep a close eye on him. I'll let you know what I find.

Last edited by FlyingShawn; 12-02-2011 at 02:19 AM.. Reason: Accidentally bumped "post" mid-sentence
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Old 12-02-2011, 02:25 AM   #18
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fenbendazole has to be eaten to work and the raw chemical added to tank water while several have said they do it has real risks.
Sewingalot did it by accident others claim it to be practical, cheap, easier to find and safe (imo) not my tank.
Mixed with food products yes (easier to buy it that way though)
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Last edited by wkndracer; 12-02-2011 at 02:30 AM.. Reason: complete post,
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Old 12-02-2011, 05:00 AM   #19
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It looks like dropsy to me and metro meds may help if your fish will eat it.
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Old 12-02-2011, 06:32 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by garfieldnfish View Post
It looks like dropsy to me and metro meds may help if your fish will eat it.

Dropsy is marked by raised scales as well and a much faster decline..

Also, what temp do you keep your fish at btw?
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Old 12-02-2011, 07:18 AM   #21
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Dropsy is marked by raised scales as well and a much faster decline..

Also, what temp do you keep your fish at btw?
I'm very confident that it isn't Dropsy. The bloating is too minor and it doesn't match the wasting which is the primary symptom.

I keep the tank at 78F.

I just got home (been away a few days for work) and found a couple of interesting things in my war chest (you know, it really helps to have some idea what names to look for):

-Jungle's Anti-Parasite medicated food apparently contains Prazi! I tried putting some in before I left a few days ago and it seemed everyone tasted and rejected it, but I'm hoping that'll change tomorrow since they haven't eaten in a couple of days and I'm going to try Jeffww's trick of soaking it in garlic (I'm also going to crush some of it to make it bite-size for the Cardinal Tetras in the tank).

-I also looked at the ingredients on Tetra's Parasite Guard tablets and discovered they contain "Praziquantel, Diflubenzuron, Metronidazole, and Acriflavine." Unless you guys see a reason not to, I'm thinking I'll go ahead and dose the tank with these while I wait for Charlie's meds to arrive.
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Old 12-02-2011, 07:24 AM   #22
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-Jungle's Anti-Bacteria or Parasite medicated foods are really low on my list but hey starve them long enough and fish will eat wet cardboard LOL

I always try not to create a toxic soup with too many meds. at once. Clean water and good O2 is important having it's consideration in treatments too
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Old 12-02-2011, 08:05 AM   #23
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-Jungle's Anti-Bacteria or Parasite medicated foods are really low on my list but hey starve them long enough and fish will eat wet cardboard LOL
That's exactly what I'm hoping: between the hunger and the garlic, it'll at least get something into their systems.

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I always try not to create a toxic soup with too many meds. at once. Clean water and good O2 is important having it's consideration in treatments too
That was exactly my concern when I was asking what to combine vs dose individually. I figure the tablets can't make too much of a soup on their own and Charlie's instructions for the Flub start with "Change out as much water as you can before treatment," so I figure most of what the tablets add will be removed then.

If I begin to get concerned about the O2 levels, I can hook up an pump to the air lines/stones I ran under the substrate when setting up the tank (when it takes this long to set up a tank, you have a lot of time to plan ahead for this sort of contingency!)

BTW, thought you might like to see the tank as a whole. I picked out the Noah's Ark decoration for our first family tank when I was 5 and have displayed it in my main tank ever since (22 years!), so I decided to make it the centerpiece of the new tank's scape and title it "Mount Ararat" (sorry about it looking so bright, I was running out the door when I took the pic and didn't turn the exposure down far enough):
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Old 12-02-2011, 08:16 AM   #24
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haha like the story! thanks for sharing that.
The tanks I have that are filtered with a canister I clean the can about a week before I do my worming and the water changes both before and after have the critters belly dragging the gravel.

hope you get this all resolved so the drama ends.
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Old 12-02-2011, 07:45 PM   #25
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I guess they're not as hungry as I was hoping: even with the garlic I got little interest in the Jungle food. Oh well, they'll get there eventually.

I put the sick on in a breeder box for a couple hours to observe his poop. It seemed pretty normal to me: 0.75-1.0cm long, greenish-brown coloration.

I've now dosed the tank with the Parasite Guard I mentioned earlier (including letting one of the tablets dissolve in the breeder box to give him a little-bit stronger dose before releasing him again).

Now I guess it's just a wait-and-see until I get Charlie's meds.
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Old 12-02-2011, 08:01 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by FlyingShawn View Post
Just to clarify, do you think Fenb is just that dangerous that is should be avoided or do you mean you used Flub dosing guides with Fenb by mistake (so you just have to be careful to keep them straight)?

I haven't had the opportunity to observe their poop due to my work schedule and not knowing what to look for. I'm off tomorrow, so I'll catch him in a breeder box, feed him, and keep a close eye on him. I'll let you know what I find.
To clarify, wkndracer (Mike) gave me the instructions for the flubendazole. I only had enough for half of the dosage recommended, but still used it. However, I made a horrible mistake and it was actually fenbendazole that I had on hand. (Messing up two little letters is a bad, bad thing.) Besides the mass posioning, I knew something was wrong just by the undissolved white mess in the tank: http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/h...0329184337.jpg

From what I can gather is many of the fish swallowed the fenbendazole whole. Many of the dead fish had it in their digestive system. I found out in a disgusting manner, the link I gave in a prior post shows the half of a fish that I examined. Plus, you could see the lumps on the whole fish. Between eating it and it being in the water not dissolving, it really did a number on the tank. And after the inital loss of like 35 fish, they kept dying for days. I have used 0.1 grams in a 10 gallon to get rid of hydra in a shrimp only tank with success. But, as you can see in the above picture link, it didn't effect the shrimp despite it being everywhere. I can no longer recommend it for anything other than hydra in a shrimp only tank. And even then, I don't recommend it further.

As far as flubendazole, the stuff that Mike recommended, I have used it successfully to treat velvet and the fish did wonderfully. I wouldn't hestitate to use it in the future. It was a miracle drug as the stuff I brought for velvet wasn't safe for the rest of the tanks inhabitants including the plants.

I have used Jungle antiparasite medication (the tablet kind that foams) successfully for fish in the past, but it took a couple of treatments. It was really gross to see the worms that came out of the danios that were sick. I've heard it doesn't work for every parasite, though.

(Edit - I just saw your last post that you already checked the fish. You are a ninja! ) Definitely check the fish's poop if you can. If you ever see white stringy stuff, they are definitely sick with parasites. Now the tricky part is seeing good ol' poop and knowing this doesn't mean they aren't sick.

One more thing. Be careful not to mix medications and to give the fish time to recover before adding more medications and be sure to change the water between treatments. For example, you could treat the fish and they would be free of the parasites, but still have a sunken stomach and a little bloating This is also due to not getting the food they needed. Think of getting a bad cold. You are over the cough and snotty nose, but you are still needing more time to recover from the fatigue. I'd work with only one medication type at a time, wait at least a week or so after treatment. Feeding them, watching them closely and then go from there.

I like your tank and it's story by the way. Good luck on the fish. Please let us know what happens.
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Last edited by sewingalot; 12-02-2011 at 08:07 PM.. Reason: added one thing
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Old 12-02-2011, 11:05 PM   #27
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Sorry for a derail, but I'm finding this interesting - I used fenbendazole on my 55 tank that I had to break down. Not knowing any better, I used it (based on recommendations) for a possible planaria outbreak. Now I think they might not have been planaria. Anyhow, it was days later when my fish started dropping like flies from columnaris. I wonder if the fenbendazole could have weakened the fish's immune system? (They ate a great deal of it, and I treated with it for days)
Again, apologies for the derailment...
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Old 12-03-2011, 07:34 PM   #28
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Hi all,

I am new to the forums, but I have been searching obsessively to find the answer to this same question. My fish have this SAME disease I have been wracking my brain to figure out what it is. Just like the OP said, my fish have slight bloating in the front, but then their rear is really droopy and wastes way. Color and appetite stay normal until the end, but in the very last stages (right before death) the wasting becomes so pronounced that the fish have difficulty swimming. Some fish will last for up to a month while others will be dead within a week, and it seems like whenever one fish is moved to quarantine another one has become sick.

Some info about my tank, it is 16 gallons up and running for six months now, heavily planted, with three guppies, four platys, some tiny fry, and an unknown number of cherry shrimp and MTS (recently added four assassin snails and the problem began about two months ago). Temperature stays between 73 and 74, Ph is a little bit above 7.2.

I am convinced that it must be something internal, as if it were environmental, it would affect more than one fish at once (imo). I am really worried now that it is fish TB, so I have been trying to remove fish that are showing symptoms as soon as possible, but as my tank is cooler than most tropical tanks, is this even possible? I've heard that Mycobacterium marinum's ideal temperature is closer to 30 degrees celsius. I've observed poop and it is definitely NOT white and string, it looks the same as it always has. Anyway, I will try some of the medications that previous posters have suggested, but THIS IS SO FRUSTRATING!
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Old 12-03-2011, 07:56 PM   #29
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Hi all,

I am new to the forums, but I have been searching obsessively to find the answer to this same question. My fish have this SAME disease I have been wracking my brain to figure out what it is.
Sorry to hear that Pete.

At this point, my plan of attack is to continue with the Parasite Guard tablets, then try the Leva and Flub from Charlie, and then move on to the Kana (since it's rumored to help with TB). I'll keep you posted on what happens, but results are going to be slow in coming.

Since we're both paranoid that it's TB and I've already got the Leva and Flub on the way, would it be worthwhile for you to start with the Kana instead, as a sort of multi-vectored attack?

Let us know what happens.
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Old 12-07-2011, 04:43 AM   #30
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I've now completed two doses of the Jungle tablets with no noticeable improvements (which is what I was expecting, since I'd tried them with the platy that died before).

I've given up on the medicated food also. Even after the garlic soak and nearly a week of not being offered anything else, they barely touched the stuff (it was also something that I'd tried with the platy). At this point, I think it'd be better to go back to the regular food (Tetra's tropical crisps are the main staple, with some freeze-dried bloodworms tossed in occasionally) than keep starving them on the medicated food.

Charlie's meds arrived on Monday, so tomorrow morning I'll do the 95% WC and administer the first dose of Flub. I plan on doing two doses of Flub per the instructions on his page, then have sewingalot's recommended break for a few days before dosing the Leva.
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