70 gallon dirt goldfish tank

[xjasminex]

Hmm, what is the significance of this picture....may i ask...?
=]

[Gold Finger]

If anyone can tell me the point of higher filter turnover, I would really appreciate it. I have around 2x, like I have always used. It seems to work fine for me despite the folks who recommend 10x turnover. Maybe I get it and I am just being weird.

[Gold Finger]

Originally Posted by xjasminex

Hmm, what is the significance of this picture....may i ask...?
=]

Just a record of some slimy algae I grew

[Gold Finger]

perhaps if my wife sees it I'll get a nice big algae magnet for xmas

[xjasminex]

Ha ha, im told that fish stuff is all me and i will not be getting anything fish related for christmas...bummer.

10x filtration is recommended for goldfish because they are dirty fish, poop machines and mess makers. Think about this...the more or less water you have passing through your filters equals more or less ammonia that is being converted into nitrite and then therefore nitrate.

Because goldfish create more ammonia per fish than lots of other fish they require a higher filtration rate than other fish, so the faster the filtration rate the faster your ammonia gets converted and becomes less toxic.

If you are talking about 2x the filtration rate on your 70 gallon with the two small goldfish then thats a different story. That tank is really understocked therefore it will take a longer time for nitrate to build up.

[Gold Finger]

OK. Thanks. I think I understand it a bit more now. I think I get hung up on it because I don't get the math. You know; 100 gallons goes through a filter in an hour, how much of the ten gallon water column never left the tank?? Anyway, I accept it now. Sometimes it depends who's telling you, I guess. I will keep it in mind. If I ever show ammonia, I will double my turnover and maybe filtration too. I think you have to strike a balance with bio filter surface area and water dwell time and turnover. Too fast and the bacs don't have a good chance to eat the nitrogen, I think. I'm gonna plant the heck out of it so it may never be an issue but it's good to know.

[xjasminex]

More is better, i like the idea of having more than one filter, then you have more space for bio bugs.

And with plants you have to find an equilibrium. Plants consume ammonia just like the bio bugs, for me its gonna be to find out how much ammonia the plants consume then figure out how much filtration is needed to convert the remaining ammonia, by removing a filter and testing my water till i get the perfect water parameters that im looking for.

[Gold Finger]

I am going about it the other way around. I want a massive colony of bac to eat all of the ammonia possible and leave the plants so hungry they will convert the nitrate back to ammonia for food. Perhaps this is ill advised and will lead to algae problems??? I really don't understand the relationships yet. I don't even know which, the plants or the bacs, consumes the various forms of nitrogen faster.

[defiesexistence]

Gold, I like your algae You could clean it off, and offer it to your wife as a facial.

Plants can't convert nitrates back to ammonia. There's a 'bio bug' that does ammonification, converting it into ammonia, and water-soluble ammonium salts or so I read quickly from this: http://www.lenntech.com/nitrogen-cycle.htm... After reading an article on the decomposition of, well, dead people, I would have to guess and say bacs convert most forms of nitrogen faster than plants... But, my logic is not guided by understanding, but deduction. I just know the basics of the nitrogen cycle. I'm not trying to correct you, at all! but learn with you. Probably just an idiot's ramblings.

Anyhow. Perhaps you might be interested in the massive colony of bac on the MattenFilter: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/lo...-new-post.html. It's kind of like a sump, inside the tank. No reason you couldn't just have this be in your sump too. You could grow your terrestrial plants on that aquaponically, and submersed, any aquatic rhizome plants can grow on the filter below the water line.

Can we have a close-up of your sump?

[Gold Finger]

Originally Posted by defiesexistence

gold, i like your algae you could clean it off, and offer it to your wife as a facial.

hah!

[Gold Finger]

Originally Posted by defiesexistence

Plants can't convert nitrates back to ammonia. There's a 'bio bug' that does ammonification, converting it into ammonia, and water-soluble ammonium salts or so I read quickly from this: http://www.lenntech.com/nitrogen-cycle.htm... After reading an article on the decomposition of, well, dead people, I would have to guess and say bacs convert most forms of nitrogen faster than plants... But, my logic is not guided by understanding, but deduction. I just know the basics of the nitrogen cycle. I'm not trying to correct you, at all! but learn with you. Probably just an idiot's ramblings.

Anyhow. Perhaps you might be interested in the massive colony of bac on the MattenFilter: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/lo...-new-post.html. It's kind of like a sump, inside the tank. No reason you couldn't just have this be in your sump too. You could grow your terrestrial plants on that aquaponically, and submersed, any aquatic rhizome plants can grow on the filter below the water line.

Can we have a close-up of your sump?

Plant roots have a symbiotic relationship with both the nitrifying and denitrifying bacs which they foster on and around their "rhizoplane". They could not consume much of anything without root bacs. When I say the plants convert nitrite or nitrate backwards I mean with bacterial help, like when people digest stuff... our digestion wouldn't work without bacteria and fungi which we foster in our gut and which do some of the chemical work for us/with us.

I'll try to get a good shot of my "sump", or I'll just post a pic of a Hydro Sponge. That's all it is. (best thing ever). It amounts to a matten filter because it has a very large area of foam rubber with pore structure superior to (arguably) poret foam. It has amazing colony area, and once it gets a bit dirty and sticky it polishes the water micron style. Just squeeze it out once in a while. Never clogs. Holds a TON of filth.

So, do you think the bacs keeping the plants hungry of macros would invite algae or other problems? How do people do this? Balance bacs and plants I mean.

[Gold Finger]

In the absence of ammonia form nitrogen aquatic plants which are planted in an anaerobic substrate like mud will uptake nitrite/nitrate form nitrogen from the water column with their foliage and transport it to their roots where the anaerobes they foster denitrify it back to ammonia and the plants consume that.

[Gold Finger]

So if I plant enough fast growing stem plants (or any plants, maybe). I should be able to get away with nearly no water changes... I think. It's kinda Walstad but for goldfish, so with faster growth and more filtration and a sand cap which gets vacummed occasionally.

[Gold Finger]

If I have trouble I will switch to your approach, Jasmine. Get rid of as much bac colony as possible and rely on the plants.

[Gold Finger]

Sponge: $18
Bucket: $5
Powerhead: $30