Persistent Myths about Planted Ripariums - Page 3
Planted Tank Forums
Your Tanks Image Hosting *Tank Tracker * Plant Profiles Fish Profiles Planted Tank Guide Photo Gallery Articles

Go Back   The Planted Tank Forum > General Planted Tank Forums > General Planted Tank Discussion


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-07-2011, 07:38 PM   #31
hydrophyte
Planted Tank Guru
 
PTrader: (141/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Posts: 9,561
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by duff View Post
Interesting discussion guys!

Hydrophyte - No fish yet (not sure what might be a good fit yet and I only have about 5g of water to work with) I am using treated tap water for WC's that is somewhat hard water and top off with RO water during the week to keep the TDS in check. So I am just am dosing light ferts for now.

Maybe a small school of CPD's, or a Betta or a Dwarf puffer - decisions decisions...
Yep even with a small tank like that there are so many options.

Like I mentioned you don't have to worry too much about ferts until the plants really start to grow. Light ferts sounds great for now.
hydrophyte is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 09-07-2011, 08:19 PM   #32
firefiend
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
firefiend's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Vancouver, WA
Posts: 362
Default

I was always under the impression that a Paludarium was meant to capture a terrestial, riparial and aquatic snapshot. Due to scaling issues with the use the aquariums however, the terrestial part of the paludarium seems to be considered by many riparial.
firefiend is offline  
Old 09-07-2011, 08:36 PM   #33
tuffgong
Wannabe Guru
 
tuffgong's Avatar
 
PTrader: (40/100%)
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: DC/MD/VA
Posts: 1,453
Default

Great thread Hydrophyte! I have a couple questions for you that have been buggin' me. Does a riparium by definition have plants in it? If so, isn't the term planted riparium redundant?
__________________

Dollar Store Dirt Tank - 20g - Albino Sterbai Cory Fry Tank
Fraternity of Dirt #30 - SunSun Pimp Club #20 - Eheim Pimp Club #412
tuffgong is offline  
Old 09-07-2011, 09:56 PM   #34
plantbrain
Planted Tank Guru
 
plantbrain's Avatar
 
PTrader: (256/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The swamp
Posts: 13,347
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RipariumGuy View Post
A riparium is a setup that utilizes riparium planters and/or rafts. So, your setup is not a riparium. It appears to be a normal aquarium with emersed driftwood with emergent growth(?)

Pardon my stupidity, but what "overlap" is there? I see no overlap. If a setup doesn't use planters and/or rafts, it isn't a riparium. If it does, it is. It doesn't get any simpler then that.


A paludarium on the other hand is a type of vivarium that incorporates both terrestrial and aquatic elements. Planters and rafts are definitely not a form of land.


EDIT: Holy cow did I come in late on this. Let me read some past posts and get back on this....
Wood is the raft
Ever made a raft?
Ever walked down a stream or by a lake and seen plants growing on a log?

What is a raft?

I mean really, I see little difference between these so called DIFFERENT terms here. I like Riparium personally better, but simply doing away with paludarium all the way seems better.

I mean the type of planter is what makes it different?

Are these questions unreasonable that I am asking?
They seem pretty basic and simple and I'm not getting any real support for their differences in the prior post. I'm asking some rather basic questions and suggesting Riparium seems more reasonable once you get out of the water.

Emergenariums?

Paludarium's claim to have a component of each fails as well, since many riparian systems have all of these as well, and marsh/swamps might lack much submersed growth or terrestrial aerobic sediments.

I think the name chosen was poor for paludarium, and a wiser term "Riparium" is more applied to a wide range of tanks/set ups.
You guys keep trying to say it's just a hobby and that they are different, but I see little that supports this claim or view.

I can call something anything I want, say my tank "lake-arium" and then say that it applies to all aquatic systems, which clearly it does not. Aquarium simply applies to water, so it is a better description.

Where emergent growth occurs above water, and/or terrestrial systems are linked, this seems to best describe Riparium. These are not myths or arbitrary made up stuff cause I want it to be this way, these are definitions based on the root of the word.

That is why I do not like the paludarium term and why I prefer the term, Riparium.


It's pretty simple, there's no arbitrary issues with it, it describes a wider range of habitat, you/Hydrophte coined it etc.

Why even bother trying to make a big deal about paludariums at all?
Promote this and run with it. Suggest the paludarium is not a particularly descriptive word. Planters may make the hobby easier, but they do not define a habitat. Likewise, terrestrial planters still have some linkage with the water table. So the crown of the plant where the stem/root connect might help when it comes to the submersed, emergent etc.

The plants I have in my tank have roots way around the water, but are fed indirectly by the moss.

The wood acts as a natural raft.

This is something one might see along a creek which I would refer to as a riparian zone.
__________________
Regards,
Tom Barr
plantbrain is offline  
Old 09-07-2011, 10:31 PM   #35
RipariumGuy
Planted Tank Guru
 
RipariumGuy's Avatar
 
PTrader: (10/100%)
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Green Bay, Wisconsin
Posts: 3,614
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by plantbrain View Post
Wood is the raft
Ever made a raft?
Ever walked down a stream or by a lake and seen plants growing on a log?

What is a raft?

I mean really, I see little difference between these so called DIFFERENT terms here. I like Riparium personally better, but simply doing away with paludarium all the way seems better.

I mean the type of planter is what makes it different?

Are these questions unreasonable that I am asking?
They seem pretty basic and simple and I'm not getting any real support for their differences in the prior post. I'm asking some rather basic questions and suggesting Riparium seems more reasonable once you get out of the water.

Emergenariums?

Paludarium's claim to have a component of each fails as well, since many riparian systems have all of these as well, and marsh/swamps might lack much submersed growth or terrestrial aerobic sediments.

I think the name chosen was poor for paludarium, and a wiser term "Riparium" is more applied to a wide range of tanks/set ups.
You guys keep trying to say it's just a hobby and that they are different, but I see little that supports this claim or view.

I can call something anything I want, say my tank "lake-arium" and then say that it applies to all aquatic systems, which clearly it does not. Aquarium simply applies to water, so it is a better description.

Where emergent growth occurs above water, and/or terrestrial systems are linked, this seems to best describe Riparium. These are not myths or arbitrary made up stuff cause I want it to be this way, these are definitions based on the root of the word.

That is why I do not like the paludarium term and why I prefer the term, Riparium.


It's pretty simple, there's no arbitrary issues with it, it describes a wider range of habitat, you/Hydrophte coined it etc.

Why even bother trying to make a big deal about paludariums at all?
Promote this and run with it. Suggest the paludarium is not a particularly descriptive word. Planters may make the hobby easier, but they do not define a habitat. Likewise, terrestrial planters still have some linkage with the water table. So the crown of the plant where the stem/root connect might help when it comes to the submersed, emergent etc.

The plants I have in my tank have roots way around the water, but are fed indirectly by the moss.

The wood acts as a natural raft.

This is something one might see along a creek which I would refer to as a riparian zone.

First, I did not mean to come across offended by your questions in any way. So, forgive me for that.

Anyway, I am begining to see your point. And I now agree. The main reason that I have stressed the differences between the two is because many people didn't know what a riparium was, and if they did, assumed it was a type of paludarium.

I like your use of the term riparium: any aquarium with emersed growth(?)
__________________
"My next hobby is going to be tearing up $100 bills while simultaneously banging my head against a wall and flooding my basement."
"Ask not what the hobby can do for you, but what you can do the the hobby" - ScapeFu
The Jake-arium
Wabi-Kusa Pimp #3
RipariumGuy is offline  
Old 09-07-2011, 11:20 PM   #36
EWTC
Planted Member
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 177
Default

Hi all. I'll just jump in and say (for what it’s worth) that I don't think that just any aquarium with emersed growth would meet a definition of "riparium". Ripa is Latin for river bank and riparian zone is a clearly defined habitat consisting of the interface between land and a river or stream. Riparian vegetation, as has already been noted, is characterized by hydrophilic plants. So to me, a "riparium" should be an attempt to simulate that interface and would need to have moving water (e.g. using an outside filter at the least). my son’s newt tank, which consists of still water and emergent plants, would not be a "riparium" as it really more reminiscent of the edge of a pond, not a stream. But that doesn’t mean a "riparium" can’t have a terrestrial component, or have plants attached to wood instead of planters attached to the glass.

My 2 cents...

EC
EWTC is offline  
Old 09-08-2011, 01:50 AM   #37
hydrophyte
Planted Tank Guru
 
PTrader: (141/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Posts: 9,561
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by plantbrain View Post
Wood is the raft
Ever made a raft?
Ever walked down a stream or by a lake and seen plants growing on a log?

What is a raft?

I mean really, I see little difference between these so called DIFFERENT terms here. I like Riparium personally better, but simply doing away with paludarium all the way seems better.

I mean the type of planter is what makes it different?

Are these questions unreasonable that I am asking?
They seem pretty basic and simple and I'm not getting any real support for their differences in the prior post. I'm asking some rather basic questions and suggesting Riparium seems more reasonable once you get out of the water.

Emergenariums?

Paludarium's claim to have a component of each fails as well, since many riparian systems have all of these as well, and marsh/swamps might lack much submersed growth or terrestrial aerobic sediments.

I think the name chosen was poor for paludarium, and a wiser term "Riparium" is more applied to a wide range of tanks/set ups.
You guys keep trying to say it's just a hobby and that they are different, but I see little that supports this claim or view.

I can call something anything I want, say my tank "lake-arium" and then say that it applies to all aquatic systems, which clearly it does not. Aquarium simply applies to water, so it is a better description.

Where emergent growth occurs above water, and/or terrestrial systems are linked, this seems to best describe Riparium. These are not myths or arbitrary made up stuff cause I want it to be this way, these are definitions based on the root of the word.

That is why I do not like the paludarium term and why I prefer the term, Riparium.


It's pretty simple, there's no arbitrary issues with it, it describes a wider range of habitat, you/Hydrophte coined it etc.

Why even bother trying to make a big deal about paludariums at all?
Promote this and run with it. Suggest the paludarium is not a particularly descriptive word. Planters may make the hobby easier, but they do not define a habitat. Likewise, terrestrial planters still have some linkage with the water table. So the crown of the plant where the stem/root connect might help when it comes to the submersed, emergent etc.

The plants I have in my tank have roots way around the water, but are fed indirectly by the moss.

The wood acts as a natural raft.

This is something one might see along a creek which I would refer to as a riparian zone.
What do you really mean with all of this? Do you have some other agenda or motive in mind? How are you going to stop people from using the word paludarium? Who says that the elements and functioning of a model ecosystem display necessarily has to be so loyal to anything in nature? Hundreds of thousands of hobbyists who keep their dart frogs in planted enclosures refer their setups as "vivariums". Should this term be discarded because their is no such thing as a wild ecosystem called a "vive"? How would a change like that ever be enforced and why should it be changed if the description serves very well.

By the way, most of the dart frog vivariums that I have ever seen bear little resemblance to anything that I have seen in anture. Most of them have been filled mainly with plants that grow in treetops, but attached to a 3D background that is more like a rock wall, and with animals that in the wild live on the flat rainforest floor. They look plenty nice though and the plants and animals can be very happy inside.

It is good to have agreed-upon terms to distinguish between ripariums and what I am calling paludariums because the basic elements of setup are distinct and the kinds of living things that make the best inhabitants are distinct...
  • Ripariums are mainly for fish and plants.
  • Paludariums are mainly for amphibious animals and plants, and maybe also fish.
Swamps are wetlands with lots of trees. The setup that you linked the pictures for--which looks to me like a cross between what I am calling a riparium and what I am calling a paludarium--has plants growing adhered to the manzanita sticking out of the water. Of the places that I have been in nature the feature that I have seen that most resembled this kind of growth are floating logs in the backwater swamps along the Mississippi River that by the end of the summer are covered with thick growth of Eleocharis acicularis and other little plants. Assuming that my observation is representative--I'm not claiming that it is--and applying your reasoning then shouldn't you call that a paludarium? The logs growing along the edges of streams and rivers, the riparian zone, tend to grow less plants like that because the water level fluctuates more and because the flowing water tends to scour plants from hard surfaces
hydrophyte is offline  
Old 09-08-2011, 05:19 PM   #38
hydrophyte
Planted Tank Guru
 
PTrader: (141/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Posts: 9,561
Default

OK I have some observations on this one...

Myth #2 - Planted ripariums are perfect habitats for turtles, frogs, crabs and other amphibious animals.

You could maybe keep fully aquatic herps OK in a riparium, but anything that might climb would not be good for the riparium plants. Most of those plants that grow on the rafts have fine, thin stems and it is easy to knock them over. A lot of the best plants to put in the planters are similarly flimsy. Crypts can grow into really impressive emersed riparium specimens, but the stems are so soft that any animal larger than a small insect would just flatten them out.

There is not any real land area in a riparium, so there is not good place for herps to bask. One could include a shelf or flaoting island or something like that, but those feaures would just get in the way of the riparium planters. To get a good-looking planting it is usually necessary to fill most of that whole real rear pane of glass with planters + plants.

There so-o-o-o-o-o-o many different options to explore for fish stocking. You can make a really engaging display with some nice active fish to go with the riparium plants. It appears to me that some hobbyists get really stuck on the idea of keeping herps in a riparium because their own frame of reference is mainly with the vivarium setups used with dart frogs and other herps, which might be the only similar kind of setup that they have seen. I once had a discussion with somebody who insisted that I should put some dart frogs into a large open-top riparium filled with plants, and robust cichlids and livebearers. Dart frogs would have just drowned in that tank. The fish probably would have eaten their legs off. I thought that the setup looked nice just the way it was, but that guy could not shake that idea.

If you want to keep amphibious animals with plants, then something more like a regular paludarium setup with a built-up hardscape would be a better idea. However, as mentioned earlier something like a hybrid setup with the right riparium plants might also work OK for amphibious animals. I have pondered setting up the mangrove planting that I have going in a 65 for mudskippers, but I decided to use other fish instead. Most of the plants in there are are upright and sturdy, and it wouldn't be hard to make some good areas for the mudskippers to climb around by adding some more big manzanita stumps to the water. You could also probably make a nice hybrid setup for turtles if you were to forego the trellis raft and just select some really big and sturdy peace lilies in planters to put on one side of the tank, then positioned a floating basking platform on the other side. It might be hard to get a layout like that to look totally natureal, but the plants would add some nice greenery and help to keep the water clean.
hydrophyte is offline  
Old 09-09-2011, 02:30 AM   #39
hydrophyte
Planted Tank Guru
 
PTrader: (141/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Posts: 9,561
Default

Just for reference, here are some water-associated herps that somebody listed in response to my post on another forum, from member Groundhog...

Quote:

--Small pipids, e,g. Hymenochirus
--Reed frogs
--Theloderma sp.
--Bombina sp.
--Floating frogs
--Certain newts
--Dwarf sirens
--Water skinks

Etc?!?
A lot of these get pretty big and as described above they probably wouldn't be so compatible with riparium plants. I have wondered about reed frogs (Hyperolius sp.). Most of them are very small and some are supposedly almost entirely arboreal, so they might stay up in the foliage more and not really require a basking area.
hydrophyte is offline  
Old 09-16-2011, 12:28 AM   #40
londonloco
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
PTrader: (1/100%)
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: virginia, usa
Posts: 696
Default

Subscribed....
londonloco is offline  
Old 09-20-2011, 06:36 PM   #41
hydrophyte
Planted Tank Guru
 
PTrader: (141/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Posts: 9,561
Default

Myth #3 - Riparium plants require CO2 injection for vigorous growth.

The emersed aquatic plants in a riparium will be able to uptake more than enough carbon dioxide from the air, where it is normally many times more available than in water. There is no need to inject extra CO2 for riparium plants. I have seen a couple of riparium setups that used CO2 injection for underwater foreground plants. However, I have never tried this and I would be disinclined to do it. For the setups where I have used underwater plants I have included low tech selections (swords, crypts, Anubias, Java fern) that grew very well without any extra carbon dioxide. By installing a CO2 system one would be losing out in part on the beneficial low input and cost-saving features of planted riparium.

Another tack that one could apply for the underwater area would be to use no plants there at all and instead develop a compelling underwater layout with a well-rendered hardscape, high-quality natural gravel and active fish display.

A related idea is the use of high-nutrient substrates for the underwater plants in a riparium, such as mineralized topsoil mixes with top dressings of other gravel substrates. I think that this would also be overkill in most cases. Topsoil plant substrates might be best used where underwater plant nutrient demands are very high, as with the use of bright lighting and CO2 injection. If planted into a riparium the underwater plants will usually be less demanding. The emersed riparium plants can throw a lot of shade on the underwater area and in a fully-planted riparium there will only be spaceand light for underwater plants up in the front 1/2 or 1/3 of tank depth. It is usually a better idea to select low tech underwater plants and feed them with some water column dosing or tablet or capsules fertilizers, rather than setting up a more complicated layered substrate.

Check out RootMedic.com for excellent aquarium plant fert products at great prices.
hydrophyte is offline  
Old 09-20-2011, 10:20 PM   #42
duff
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
duff's Avatar
 
PTrader: (29/100%)
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dallas
Posts: 594
Default

KISS - Keep It Simple Silly... I have to admit that this is the part I like the best about Ripariums - all my other tanks need so much love compared to my little riparium

As usual, I have a somewhat off-this-topic questions, For plants on rafts and in planters:

1) do the roots need to be trimmed? How often? Beneficial/Harmful?
2) In doing so, is the effect like bonsai - resulting in smaller growth/ controlled growth?
3) Is replanting of the planters suggested after a period of time, say in a year or more? (add root tabs - trim roots etc?)

Thank you Hydrophyte, as always for the great information!

Duff
__________________
duff is offline  
Old 09-21-2011, 01:24 AM   #43
hydrophyte
Planted Tank Guru
 
PTrader: (141/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Posts: 9,561
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by duff View Post
KISS - Keep It Simple Silly... I have to admit that this is the part I like the best about Ripariums - all my other tanks need so much love compared to my little riparium
Yep riparium setups are ideally nice and simple.
Quote:

As usual, I have a somewhat off-this-topic questions, For plants on rafts and in planters:

1) do the roots need to be trimmed? How often? Beneficial/Harmful?
Sometimes the roots will grow from the bottoms of the planters and get pretty long, but it is fine to trim them.
Quote:
2) In doing so, is the effect like bonsai - resulting in smaller growth/ controlled growth?
Shorter roots might slow the plant down a bit, but not too much.
Quote:
3) Is replanting of the planters suggested after a period of time, say in a year or more? (add root tabs - trim roots etc?)
That depends. Most kinds of riparium plants can stay in the planters for a quite a long time...a whole year or more. If you have a clumping or rhizomatous plant you might however want to knock it out of the planter to divide so that you can have more. I often do this with crypts because they can grow into really dense clumps with lots of shoots in the planter. Some plants will get to be very root-bound in the planters, but most do not seem bothered by this at all. There is however one kind of plant that grows such dense roots that it can start to bend the sindes of the planter. The Cyperus that I use a lot grows a lot of hairy roots and it might be a good idea to repot it before it gets really big. Otherwise it is just hard to get it our of the planter.
Quote:

Thank you Hydrophyte, as always for the great information!

Duff
You bet!
hydrophyte is offline  
Old 09-21-2011, 07:41 AM   #44
dundadundun
Algae Grower
 
dundadundun's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: se, pa
Posts: 129
Default hydrophyte... question...

curious...
is it your personal proprietary line of planters and trellis rafts that defines a riparium as such? if you don't mind me asking...

if not; what other methods could one use to go about constructing a riparium? any thoughts?

for example; if one were to say put a couple hooks on some good neodymium magnets and put a thin layer of adhesive or rubber on a couple other neodymium magnets or steel slugs... could one hook a black filter block or maybe some epi-web to the back wall of an aquarium and use that as an inert substrate or media (soil) for the emergent (riparian zone) plants and still consider what they've achieved a riparium? maybe attach some closed cell foam cut into their own preferred shape and used similar to your trellis rafts as foreground planters?

or is this something that's eventually going to be a proprietary and/or patented term such as orchidarium?
dundadundun is offline  
Old 09-21-2011, 01:55 PM   #45
hydrophyte
Planted Tank Guru
 
PTrader: (141/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Posts: 9,561
Default

There's no priority claim for the word "riparium" or the general concept of growing plants above the waterline in a fish tank by me or anybody else that I know of, but the particular configuration of planters and/or trellis rafts in the Riparium Supply product line and their use in an aquarium system has patent pending protection.

With the definition that we have been using here what you are describing sounds to me like a riparium. It sounds to me like it could work well for certain kinds of plants and would probably provide excellent biological filtration. Some kinds of plants that I have used can grow very well with their roots right in the water so an open-cell foam could be a good substrate for them.

Here are some of the ones that I think would be good for growing like that...
  • Pilea
  • Anubias (for high humidity)
  • Java fern (for high humidity)
  • peace lily
  • pothos vine
  • Syngonium
  • HC
  • various emersed aquarium stem plants
I understand that in Europe hobbyists have been doing this kind of planting in combination with their hamburg mattenfilter systems for years already.

Some of the best riparium plants are more demanding of rich root fertilization and they are better planted in a clay-based gravel, so something more like a planter cup or a paludarium with soil substrate is better for those.
hydrophyte is offline  
Closed Thread

Tags
emersed, myth, riparium, riparium supply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Planted Tank LLC 2012