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Old 11-06-2010, 10:38 PM   #1
Sand
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toumaline?


reading the explanation of what it does confuses me. can anyone explain this quote, i know nothing of electrons etc.
"Tourmaline can release 0.06mA bioelectricity in the water and electrolyze bigger molecule group of water into smaller or single one so as to activate water. Eradiate more than 90% FIR (far infrared ray), generate above 235p/s.cm3 negative ions to make water presented alkalescence (PH is 7~7.5), antibacterial and deodorizing, and release mineral microelements.
After having put tourmaline sand, water of the aquarium for fishes is activated within 2-3hours. The water molecule group becomes smaller and amount of negative hydroxide ions is increased. Water quality is clear and doesn’t generate lichens"

and my ph is 8+, out of my tap. is it saying it will change mine to 7-7.5, or that i need to have it there first?
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Old 11-06-2010, 11:59 PM   #2
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Ignore the hype and move on to real life.

When any "new" product turns up in only commerce sites, odds it's too good to be true.
When one exact string of words turns up on all those same commerce sites it's a product coming out of China and the wholesalers are trying to build interest.

Tourmaline is mined in every country in world. It is a semi-precious gemstone. That someone is trying to drum up interest in the cutting and polishing scrap tell me there will be a lot of tourmaline jewelery for sale on the TV shopping shows and eBay, soon if not now.
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Old 11-07-2010, 01:24 AM   #3
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well it is pyroelectric and is used in industry, just not sure what that has to do with my fish tank. even the jewelry channel talks about it pyroelectric value


INTRODUCTION Tourmalines are naturally occurring minerals with the general formulaXY3Z6 (B03)3Si6018 (O,OH,F)4'where usuallyX= Na, Ca, ora vacancy, Y=AI, Li, Fe2+, FeH, and many other cations, and Z= AI, Mg, and FeH. It has been known for centuries (Dietrich, 1985) that tourmaline crystals are pyroelectric materials that develop an electrostatic charge when heated or cooled. Careful mea- surementsofthe combined primary and secondary pyroelectric effects in these minerals were first reported by Ackermann (1915). The results of that work showed that tourmaline exhibits pyroelectricity over awidetemper- aturerange. Tourmaline is stable to high temperatures and may find application as an infrared detector where ferroelectric materials such as LaTi03 fail (Hamid, 1980). Importantly, Ackermann's (1915) measurements show that differently colored tourmalines exhibit different degrees of pyroelectricity. For example, black varieties are the weakest whereas rose colored tourmalines are the most strongly pyroelectric. Subsequent investigations support these observations and show that tourmaline pyroelectric coefficients (P'3) range between-1.8 and 5.4~C/(m2. K) at 296K (Hayashi, 1912; Rontgen, 1914; Ackermann, 1915; Gladkiiand Zheludev, 1965; Gavrilova, 1965; Fa- bel and Henish, 1971; DrozhdinetaI., 1975; Gavrilova et al. 1989; the present work). Related studies have shown that piezoelectricity, the inducement of an electric charge by an applied stress, is also stronger in translucent col- oredtourmalines than in certain opaque black varieties (Cady, 1946). None of these previous studies has addressed the vari- ationinthe pyroelectric coefficients with either the pre- cisechemical composition or crystal chemistry of differ- entlycolored tourmalines. Tourmaline crystal chemistry is complex because the size and anion coordination of theX, Y, and Zcationsitesare different. As a result many different cations can be accommodated in tour~ maline by coupled isomorphous substitution (e.g., Henry andGuidotti, 1985; FoitetaI., 1989; Burt, 1989). An indication of this complexity is given by the summary of natural and synthetic tourmaline end-members as well as by the references to their structural descriptions in Table 1" (Centre for Microscopy and Microanalysis, University of Queensland, Brisbane, Queensland 4072, Australia)
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Old 11-07-2010, 02:20 AM   #4
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I have never seen anyone who is up to date on aquariums recommending tourmaline as a component of a substrate, unless you just like the appearance of it. When I see recommendations for it, they are from people trying to sell it.
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Old 11-07-2010, 03:00 AM   #5
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Bullseye HOPPY,unless it is from someone I know and am famaliar with them.
I ADMIT I love to save money I used topsoil to save money on my 75g and its been interesting,I have low lights and palnts that are supposed tio die are doing great and plants that should be thriving are dying, so what do we dO?,
yOUR INPUT IS WELCOME, Cheers
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Old 11-07-2010, 03:03 AM   #6
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my tank is setup with miraclegrow organig topsoil topped with blackdiamond and all plants are thriving
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Old 11-07-2010, 03:07 AM   #7
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This is all pseudo-scientific hype and has no basis in reality. I'd like you to do me a favor: Google "pentawater +randi". Don't worry, it's not an evil trick that pulls up something horrible, but it pulls up something very good.

You'll find a number of articles about, by or referencing James the Amazing Randi, founder, namesake and driving force behind the James Randi Educational Foundation. Pentawater, like so much other snake oil, relies on conflating a lot of scientific study with plain old balderdash. Randi is mean old coot who wants none of it. Reading the pentawater claims and hype should look familiar, like the tourmaline claims. Rex Grigg had an interesting essay on another woo woo aquarium device that is also worth reading. You can find it here: http://www.rexgrigg.com/debunked.htm. Again, he outline's the anatomy of another quacky scam and again the ad copy looks familiar.

By the way, I know what product you're reading that off the back of or the marketing material for and it is is rather heartbreaking. It does do what it is intended to do, which is to lay down extra micronutrients and seed the substrate with soil bacteria, but the extra price for a semiprecious gemstone's perceived magical abilities really makes it a turn off. The same outfit makes a really cool canister filter that costs a boat load mostly because it incorporates a magical magnet from Germany that similarly affects the water molecules' structure and conditions it. Pure poppycock but again, depressing because of who makes it.
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Old 11-07-2010, 03:40 AM   #8
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Ooooo, but ADA sells it, it must be good!

Regards,
Tom Barr
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Old 11-07-2010, 03:50 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by plantbrain View Post
Ooooo, but ADA sells it, it must be good!

Regards,
Tom Barr
Tom, you're killing me. Please don't make me put the flame retardant underwear back on, it's itchy and I'm really trying to make friends and contacts here and I don't think I have it in me to get involved in this again even if I'm not being that incendiary like last time.

If they come back again, I'm hiding behind you .
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Old 11-07-2010, 08:05 AM   #10
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I'm sorry, but does ADA have a history of selling useless items? I think they have no reason to mislead anyone with snake oil... You really think they're that desperate for money? I've never been unsatisfied with an ADA product, have you?

ADA makes no reference to tourmaline as an electrowhatchamacallit, and as far as the critics are concerned, who was the first person to say "hey, I bet our plants would like some iron"?

Here's some real information:

It's a complex silicate, containing a plethora of minerals. Including calcium, sodium, potassium, lithium, magnesium, iron, manganese, zinc, aluminum, chromium, etc etc etc.

Could this 'gem', also perhaps have some ACTUAL FUNCTIONAL use? I've got to say... most likely! As far as it being electroactive, it probably is, it contains the same minerals that a lithium battery and in some cases alkaline battery. Does the electrical aspect of the gem have any awesome plant growing powers? nah, but it seems to be packed with micro nutrients.

Come on guys, why so critical? I mean, I haven't ever used it, but I've looked into using it! I'm assuming none of you have used it either. Just because you didn't think to use it first, doesn't mean it might not have a use. Whatever happened to keeping an open mind?
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Old 11-07-2010, 08:55 AM   #11
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I don't know if it has any purpose or not, but if there is a purpose it definitely is not listed in the quote from the original post.

Parts of the description don't make any sense, and the parts that do are impossible. There's probably more than .o6mA of electricity being introduced into the water by the flourescent lighting and pump impellers anyway.

Iron etc. bound up into a complex structure forming a gemstone isn't likely to be useable by aquatic plants. There are minerals like these in the glass that the aquarium is made of.

This is the type of language you see in an advertizement for healing metal bracelets, or energy crystal pendants.
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Old 11-07-2010, 02:47 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordalphus View Post
I'm sorry, but does ADA have a history of selling useless items? I think they have no reason to mislead anyone with snake oil... You really think they're that desperate for money?
Occasionally,yes. They are a business and money is any businesses' life blood but they are not malicious. I have no doubt that they honestly believe in what they are saying on that old piece of ad copy.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mordalphus View Post
I've never been unsatisfied with an ADA product, have you?
That is neither here nor there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mordalphus View Post
ADA makes no reference to tourmaline as an electrowhatchamacallit, and as far as the critics are concerned, who was the first person to say "hey, I bet our plants would like some iron"?
You're confusing two separate issues for some purpose I cannot divine. They have made a claim on an older ad about the magical properties of tourmaline. This has been since rescinded in newer marketing materials, but in the US we still have access to old packaging that makes this claim.

Iron as a micronutrient has been scientifically established for some time. Again, this is neither here nor there as it pertains to evaluating the claims about ground up tourmaline.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mordalphus View Post
Here's some real information:

It's a complex silicate, containing a plethora of minerals. Including calcium, sodium, potassium, lithium, magnesium, iron, manganese, zinc, aluminum, chromium, etc etc etc.

Could this 'gem', also perhaps have some ACTUAL FUNCTIONAL use? I've got to say... most likely! As far as it being electroactive, it probably is, it contains the same minerals that a lithium battery and in some cases alkaline battery. Does the electrical aspect of the gem have any awesome plant growing powers? nah, but it seems to be packed with micro nutrients.
Yes, as a decorative stone and that's it, really. Your analysis of the chemical composition of tourmaline is correct but provides us nothing. The only assumption I can make is that somehow you are under the impression that these elements will magically leave the gem and do something beneficial to its surroundings. This is not possible for a number of reasons, the main being that all the atoms are bound rather tightly together with their valence shells being fully satisifed by the covalent bonds prevalent in the vast majority of gemstones. Again, I can only presume this is what you meant. Batteries work on very different principles using different compounds to generate current that are well understood by most, please see this article for a better understanding of the electrochemistry of a battery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mordalphus View Post
Come on guys, why so critical?
...Because you should be. Consider googling the terms "critical thought" and "pyrrhonian skepticism" These are very helpful tools for cutting through these kinds of things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mordalphus View Post
I mean, I haven't ever used it, but I've looked into using it! I'm assuming none of you have used it either.
Remember what they say about assumptions? I have used it and it does what it says, minus the perceived magical properties of the ground up semi-precious gemstone tourmaline which according to the laws of physics cannot affect water in said manner as per the pseudoscientific claims quoted in the parent post. Outside of that, it's great for introducing extra micronutrients under your Power Sand and introducing soil bacteria as many of us already know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mordalphus View Post
Just because you didn't think to use it first, doesn't mean it might not have a use.
I really have no idea where you mistakenly picked up on this. It almost comes off as both petulant and condescending.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mordalphus View Post
Whatever happened to keeping an open mind?
I have a very open mind, not just so open that it falls out. It is New Age cranks, quacksalvers, conspiracy theorists and fanboys that tend to be closed minded and do not want to critically examine the statements of a claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. A product that claims to alter the basic physical nature of water would be considered extraordinary and if found to be true, testable and reproducible would shake physics and chemistry to their very core as we understand those two sciences today. But it hasn't and it won't because it is not true, not testable, not falsifiable nor reproducible.

I hope my response is as educational for you as it was cathartic for me.
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-Micheal S. Montalbano
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Old 11-07-2010, 03:34 PM   #13
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I sense ....... non of you really knows ..... really....... Admit it.
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Old 11-07-2010, 03:47 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mylittlefish View Post
I sense ....... non of you really knows ..... really....... Admit it.
You made me ! I was just kidding about all that stuff!

Now, if you'll excuse me I need my coffee enema this morning then I'll need to see my guru to get my chakras realigned and later today a feng shui specialist is coming over to redo the living room and I need to get a refill on my colloidal silver because you can't trust the medical establishment and looking like a smurf from years of dosing the stuff is sexy this year .
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-Micheal S. Montalbano
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Old 11-07-2010, 04:02 PM   #15
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