Metricide 14 to replace the Excel dosing - Page 2
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Old 04-19-2010, 08:09 PM   #16
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I actually wrote Seachem about the topic. Yes, they have a vested interest, but I think they have valid points:

Quote:
We consulted with our chemist in regard to your email and
this was his response:

"First, I should tell you that Flourish Excel is not a 1.7
per cent glutaraldehyde solution.

Second, the "-cide" portion of the name "Metracide"
indicates it kills living organisms. That is why Metracide
is sold in the first place. If it were sold as an additive
for aquariums, I'm sure that the strength would be
adjusted to achieve the desired goal of enhancing plant
growth. As it is, it has the strength to kill microbes.
This means that it should be diluted, and carefully.
(Glutaraldehyde does real damage to the eyes, so I would
wear safety goggles.)

Remember that glutaraldehyde is a reducing agent. The
activator that comes with Metracide sounds like an agent
to increase the reducing ability of the glutaraldehyde. I
would most certainly avoid that. But it makes me wonder if
there is something other than water in the inactive
ingredients list, perhaps a buffer to help the activator
work better.

As a general rule, it is a good idea to wear gloves, and
to make sure that glutaraldehyde doesn't come in contact
with skin. Some chemicals are sensitizers, meaning that
repeated exposure to the chemical can cause a person to
break out in a rash, or worse. Glutaraldehyde is such a
chemical. I copied this from the OSHA (Department of
Labor) website:

"Long-term (chronic) effects: Glutaraldehyde is a
sensitizer. This means some workers will become very
sensitive to glutaraldehyde and have strong reactions if
they are exposed to even small amounts. Workers may get
sudden asthma attacks with difficult breathing, wheezing,
coughing, and tightness in the chest. Prolonged exposure
can cause a skin allergy and chronic eczema, and
afterwards, exposure to small amounts produces severe
itching and skin rashes. It has been implicated as a
possible cause of occupational asthma."

The stronger the solution of glutaraldehyde, the greater
the chance of acquiring a chemical sensitivity. For the
record, somewhere in my 35 years of working in the
chemical industry I picked up a sensitivity to
glutaraldehyde. I also use Flourish Excel in both my
planted tanks, with no adverse reaction.

To play it safe, I would recommend continuing to use
Flourish Excel, and not substituting something that was
designed to do something other than deliver organic carbon
to plants. Of course, I work for Seachem, so you would
expect me to say that. But we develop our products with
the hobbyist, and not the hospital, in mind. Flourish
Excel is safe when used according to directions. It does
not have to be diluted. You don't have to worry about
developing chemical sensitivities. We do recommend that
you keep it out of your eyes, a good recommendation for
all our products."

I hope this information was helpful and please let us know
if you have any additional questions. Have a wonderful
day!

Seachem Support 100215
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Old 04-19-2010, 09:01 PM   #17
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Of course this is there answer. Yet still they won't actually identify what is in Flourish Excel. For the record, the MSDS safety precautions for each are identical and continuing to pretend that it is somehow safer because it comes in a pretty(expensive) bottle is silly.

At one point Excel was simply labeled as Glutaraldehyde on the MSDS. Now they have essentially made up a name for it(that at one point they claimed to be patenting, but apparently have no grounds to patent it on).

The use of Metricide 14 in a responsible manor is safe. NO more or less dangerous than Excel. If you don't believe me, just look at the MSDS provided by seachem.
Quote:
SECTION VIII: CONTROL MEASURES
Respiratory Protection NA
Ventilation Local Exhaust, Mechanical Ventilation
Protective Gloves Recommended
Eye Protection Required
Other Protective Clothing or Equipment NA
Work/Hygienic Practices Good house keeping practices
http://www.seachem.com/support/MSDS/...hExcel.doc.pdf
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Old 04-19-2010, 09:07 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mistergreen View Post
Just a little warning guys, Metricide is a toxic chemical. Take care when handling them. Don't breath it, touch it and obviously, don't swallow any.

And chemically it's not exactly the same as excel. Excel is derived from Glutaraldehyde which makes it a bit less toxic to plants and animals.
There is no proof that Excel is somehow safer than Metricide. Please read the MSDS for each product. What leads anyone to believe that it is safer when the MSDS indicates that both are of the same risk is mind boggling to me.

Further, this "glutaraldehyde" derivative is an unknown compound. Seachem said years ago that they would elaborate after getting it patented, but was unable to secure a patent. This leads me to believe that it is nothing more than a diluted version of Glutaraldehyde, just like Metricide.

Metricide is NOT pure Glutaraldehyde. It is diluted and continuing to perpetuate that it is somehow some nasty chemical and Excel is like bottled water is both irresponsible and false.
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Old 04-19-2010, 09:19 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by over_stocked View Post
There is no proof that Excel is somehow safer than Metricide.
Yeah, I know. That's why I said 'a bit safer'.. But there are no studies on it.. Honestly, I've stopped using excel.

Quote:
Further, this "glutaraldehyde" derivative is an unknown compound. Seachem said years ago that they would elaborate after getting it patented, but was unable to secure a patent. This leads me to believe that it is nothing more than a diluted version of Glutaraldehyde, just like Metricide.
Actually it is known, I saw the name of it but it's so long, I've forgotten it.. Something like iso.....glutataldehyde.... But as you said, it's still under the patent procedure so they can't release their method for making this compound.

Quote:
Metricide is NOT pure Glutaraldehyde. It is diluted and continuing to perpetuate that it is somehow some nasty chemical and Excel is like bottled water is both irresponsible and false.
It's not pure glutaradehyde but it doesn't mean it's safe. There are scientific papers on the negative effects of it in the environment, water notably.


Either way, use excel or metricide at your discretion.
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Old 04-19-2010, 09:52 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mistergreen View Post
Yeah, I know. That's why I said 'a bit safer'.. But there are no studies on it.. Honestly, I've stopped using excel.


Actually it is known, I saw the name of it but it's so long, I've forgotten it.. Something like iso.....glutataldehyde.... But as you said, it's still under the patent procedure so they can't release their method for making this compound.
Aqueous solution of polycycloglutaracetal
This is a proprietary name from Seachem. You will find no other reference to it from any other source. Seachem will not say what it is. It just so happens that the MSDS for it is identical to other diluted Glutataldehyde products. Actually, Seachems is often worded STRONGER than others.

There is no patent. There is no patent procedure. Seachem freely admits they do not have a patent. They formerly said they were in the process of patenting it, they no longer do. This was around 2001.
Quote:


It's not pure glutaradehyde but it doesn't mean it's safe. There are scientific papers on the negative effects of it in the environment, water notably.
Used properly it is safe. The MSDS for these both prove that. Used irresponsibly without proper personal protection, it is dangerous after long term usage. Saying something is not safe in a blanket statement like this is very misleading.

How about this statement... Potassium Nitrate is not safe. No qualifiers. Nothing.

There are scientific studies on Pure Glutaradehyde, yes.
Quote:
Either way, use excel or metricide at your discretion.

I just think it is silly for people to keep arguing that Excel is somehow safer than products like Metricide. The risk of Reactive Asthma from the use of Metricide is DIRECTLY linked to the aerosolized long term usage of Metricide. Not pouring it once daily or every couple of days. I have used this chemical in a responsible manor for 7 years with no adverse reactions. Use anything in a manor other than directed and it can be dangerous.
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Old 04-21-2010, 04:28 AM   #21
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I am sticking with Metricide. Been using it for months with no problem.
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Old 04-21-2010, 05:21 AM   #22
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Metricide 14 is safe for planted tank and even some shrimp species at half the dose of Seachem Excel. Make sure you DO NOT ADD THE ACTIVATOR from Metricide 14. It works very well as a carbon source in lieu of injected CO2. A very good friend of mine has been using this on her 256 gallon planted tank with excellent results. Please note that lower order plants are susceptible to Metricide/Excel. This would include Riccia, Mini Pelia, Vals, Stonewort (Nitella flexilis) to name a few. I pick mine up at a medical supply store here in Canada for $22 Canadian (now equal to US funds )!

Best Regards,

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Old 04-23-2010, 12:09 AM   #23
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Quote:
"First, I should tell you that Flourish Excel is not a 1.7
per cent glutaraldehyde solution.
I heard to versions, 1.7 or 1.5. Does anyone knows for sure? Btw, I am using Metricide and I don't blame Seachem for sticking with their product which is good but, pricey.
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Old 04-23-2010, 12:40 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barbarossa4122 View Post
I heard to versions, 1.7 or 1.5. Does anyone knows for sure? Btw, I am using Metricide and I don't blame Seachem for sticking with their product which is good but, pricey.
Not that I am aware. Seachem won't even admit what is in their product, so it is hard to say. I am tempted to send it to a mass spec lab, as I already have products going for testing.
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Old 04-23-2010, 01:05 AM   #25
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Quote:
I can't recall the thread, but if you do some hunting you'll find a guy who had Excel put through analysis at a lab and they came out with 1.5% glutaraldehyde. Cidex is 3.4%

http://www.barrreport.com/showthread...ight=metricide
So, it's 1.5 if this is accurate.
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Old 05-04-2010, 11:23 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dj2005 View Post
Just a heads up for those who are interested in purchasing Metricide 14: Dealmed.com seems to have lowered their price by $2, making the total $22.14 ($17.15 for one gallon and $4.99 for standard shipping). Not sure how often the price fluctuates on this product, but I haven't seen it lower than this over the past few weeks.
I just placed an order of Metricide 14 from Dealmed.com. $22.14 shipped.

Its a lot of savings since a 2L Excel is $30.89 + $7.45 shipping from Big Als.
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Old 05-07-2010, 03:32 AM   #27
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Will using this be safe in my ADA Mini M Shrimp tank? Red Cherry Shrimps....
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Old 05-07-2010, 11:28 PM   #28
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I know absolutely Cherry Shrimp, Blue Pearls, Amanos, and Mountain Fan Shrimp are not affected by this product even in Flourish Excel overdose amounts. Use half as much of Metricide 14 to compensate for the stronger solution.

Best Regards,

Stuart
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Old 05-10-2010, 11:44 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herns View Post
I just placed an order of Metricide 14 from Dealmed.com. $22.14 shipped.

Its a lot of savings since a 2L Excel is $30.89 + $7.45 shipping from Big Als.
I did the same about a month back.
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Old 05-12-2010, 10:40 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dj2005 View Post
Just a heads up for those who are interested in purchasing Metricide 14: Dealmed.com seems to have lowered their price by $2, making the total $22.14 ($17.15 for one gallon and $4.99 for standard shipping). Not sure how often the price fluctuates on this product, but I haven't seen it lower than this over the past few weeks.
I placed second order of Metricide 14 & Dealmed increased shipping cost from $4.99 to $7.99. The price is still on sale for $17.14.
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