dosing lots of baking soda
Planted Tank Forums
Your Tanks Image Hosting *Tank Tracker * Plant Profiles Fish Profiles Planted Tank Guide Photo Gallery Articles

Go Back   The Planted Tank Forum > Specific Aspects of a Planted Tank > Fertilizers and Water Parameters


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-31-2013, 04:00 AM   #1
Gold Finger
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
Gold Finger's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Wpg. MB Canada
Posts: 819
Default dosing lots of baking soda

Would dosing high levels of sodium bicarbonate as a carbon source for an algal filter in a tank with low water changes cause an increasing and harmful level of sodium? If it is harmful can algae also use calcium carbonate and would it be a safe option?
__________________
Ver. 1.0 80 gallon dirt goldfish tank (defunct)

Ver. 2.0 bare bottom same tank another approach (defunct)

Ver. 3.0 Pool filter sand same tank now

Farming Algae

Goldfish are among the worst fish for beginners.
Gold Finger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2013, 04:18 AM   #2
genomer
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (1/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: CT
Posts: 134
Default Re: dosing lots of baking soda

Why not just buy some bulk glutaraldehyde and make your own carbon source? What do you mean by "high levels"? If you keep dosing large amounts of baking soda into a tank without water changes, your carbonate hardness is going to rise very quickly.
genomer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2013, 07:46 AM   #3
Darkblade48
Moderator
 
Darkblade48's Avatar
 
PTrader: (3/100%)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Japan
Posts: 9,262
Default

There are only a few plants that are known to be able to strip the carbon molecule from bicarbonate (and even then, their ability to do so is not solidly backed up).

Adding sodium bicarbonate to your aquarium will only cause the carbonate hardness (and TDS) to increase. The added sodium is also undesirable, as you have mentioned.
__________________
Anthony

A Primer to Pressurized CO2 and A Primer to Planted Tanks
Eheim Pimp #362 - Eheim 2213 x2, Eheim 2028, Eheim 2217, Eheim surface skimmer and Eheim autofeeder.
Victor Pimp #33 - HPT272-125-350-4M
Darkblade48 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2013, 02:22 PM   #4
Diana
Planted Tank Guru
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Contra Costa CA
Posts: 7,504
Default

I do not think that any fresh water algae can use carbonates as a carbon source.

As noted above, all you will see is rising KH, and highly likely rising pH.
Diana is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2013, 04:18 AM   #5
Gold Finger
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
Gold Finger's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Wpg. MB Canada
Posts: 819
Default

Sure they can. Well, some can. Brian Moss had a wonderful study published on the subject in England's "Journal of Ecology" back in 1973. Some can use bicarbonates and some can use carbonates. Algae are pretty capable little buggers. Some can be grown in complete darkness, and some are C4 plants. Oh man, don't get me started! anyway... Sodium? Buildup? Will mega dosing S. bicarb. accumulate sodium? I am trying to find the answer myself but my head starts swimming when I read sciency people's stuff. I'm not that clever.
__________________
Ver. 1.0 80 gallon dirt goldfish tank (defunct)

Ver. 2.0 bare bottom same tank another approach (defunct)

Ver. 3.0 Pool filter sand same tank now

Farming Algae

Goldfish are among the worst fish for beginners.
Gold Finger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2013, 08:02 AM   #6
Darkblade48
Moderator
 
Darkblade48's Avatar
 
PTrader: (3/100%)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Japan
Posts: 9,262
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gold Finger View Post
Sure they can. Well, some can. Brian Moss had a wonderful study published on the subject in England's "Journal of Ecology" back in 1973.
Do you have a link to said article? I would be interested in taking a look.
__________________
Anthony

A Primer to Pressurized CO2 and A Primer to Planted Tanks
Eheim Pimp #362 - Eheim 2213 x2, Eheim 2028, Eheim 2217, Eheim surface skimmer and Eheim autofeeder.
Victor Pimp #33 - HPT272-125-350-4M
Darkblade48 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2013, 03:48 PM   #7
Gold Finger
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
Gold Finger's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Wpg. MB Canada
Posts: 819
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkblade48 View Post
Do you have a link to said article? I would be interested in taking a look.
Sure, but if you are interested based on my question in this thread I think I have figured out the answer: Algae in scrubbers don't crash pH and don't use carb or bicarb because they have access to atmospheric CO2 which they prefer. And if you are just generally interested this is the tip of the iceberg. Algae are fascinating. We use them in space in life support systems, in nanobiotech as the silicon exosketelons of diatomes contain useful valves (it is this exoskeleto which clued us in that silicon based life is possible)... and in bio fuel/food reactors... We may well be burning algae fuel instead of fossil, eating it instead of meat, and reversing the accumulation of greenhouse gasses in the process. If we are facing catastriphic self-induced events in the next few decades, algae are likely to be centrally involved in the solution to some of those problems.
Here's the link, but theres tons of stuff on this and other algae related topcs:

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.230...21101961141161
__________________
Ver. 1.0 80 gallon dirt goldfish tank (defunct)

Ver. 2.0 bare bottom same tank another approach (defunct)

Ver. 3.0 Pool filter sand same tank now

Farming Algae

Goldfish are among the worst fish for beginners.
Gold Finger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2013, 05:11 PM   #8
Zorfox
Wannabe Guru
 
Zorfox's Avatar
 
PTrader: (5/100%)
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Gainesville, FL
Posts: 1,433
Default

The study is geared more towards defining PH as a limiting factor of algae growth. The primary goal is not how microalgae can extract CO2 from multiple sources. It is however interesting. The full source can be found here without registration. Jstor requires membership, and unless payment is provided, only 3 articles every 14 days may be checked out.
Zorfox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2013, 05:42 PM   #9
Gold Finger
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
Gold Finger's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Wpg. MB Canada
Posts: 819
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorfox View Post
The study is geared more towards defining PH as a limiting factor of algae growth. The primary goal is not how microalgae can extract CO2 from multiple sources. It is however interesting. The full source can be found here without registration. Jstor requires membership, and unless payment is provided, only 3 articles every 14 days may be checked out.
Do you have experience with scrubbers?
__________________
Ver. 1.0 80 gallon dirt goldfish tank (defunct)

Ver. 2.0 bare bottom same tank another approach (defunct)

Ver. 3.0 Pool filter sand same tank now

Farming Algae

Goldfish are among the worst fish for beginners.
Gold Finger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2013, 05:40 PM   #10
Gold Finger
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
Gold Finger's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Wpg. MB Canada
Posts: 819
Default

I know it is not the main idea of the report. I misspoke, but it deals with and addresses the topic of bicarbonate use extensively and references studies which focus on that. I could not think of one which had that as the main focus. Also, thanks for the link. There's tons of great stuff you have to pay for and its nice to get around that. ( I am not above downloading free music either. Mwa ha ha! )
__________________
Ver. 1.0 80 gallon dirt goldfish tank (defunct)

Ver. 2.0 bare bottom same tank another approach (defunct)

Ver. 3.0 Pool filter sand same tank now

Farming Algae

Goldfish are among the worst fish for beginners.
Gold Finger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2013, 06:36 PM   #11
Gold Finger
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
Gold Finger's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Wpg. MB Canada
Posts: 819
Default

I don't mean you, but what do you think would result if a person who wanted fair plant growth and low tank algae growth in a non CO2 enriched tank used a scrubber to keep the water column as nutrient poor as possible while isolating the plant food in the substrate by using pool filter sand and root tabs?
__________________
Ver. 1.0 80 gallon dirt goldfish tank (defunct)

Ver. 2.0 bare bottom same tank another approach (defunct)

Ver. 3.0 Pool filter sand same tank now

Farming Algae

Goldfish are among the worst fish for beginners.
Gold Finger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2013, 06:54 PM   #12
Zorfox
Wannabe Guru
 
Zorfox's Avatar
 
PTrader: (5/100%)
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Gainesville, FL
Posts: 1,433
Default

I think providing nutrients via the substrate in a non-CO2 enriched tank will tip the competion scale in favor of plants that utilize roots as a primary nutrient source. The problem arises when we keep a variety, some of which rely on water column soley for nutrients. Then those plants can suffer as a result although there is leeching of nutrients from the substrate which sustains those plants. It seems to me that several methods could exist based on the plant varieties we are trying to grow. Presently, to grow a variety, the best solution is to dose both the substrate and water column. In that system, a large biomass of plants we want will outcompete the algae, which is what has been stated by the experts time and time again. It seems the more I learn the more I say to myself "huh that's what that guy already said"
Zorfox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2013, 01:04 AM   #13
Gold Finger
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
Gold Finger's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Wpg. MB Canada
Posts: 819
Default

Hah! I agree. In fact, I think I said the same thing once.
__________________
Ver. 1.0 80 gallon dirt goldfish tank (defunct)

Ver. 2.0 bare bottom same tank another approach (defunct)

Ver. 3.0 Pool filter sand same tank now

Farming Algae

Goldfish are among the worst fish for beginners.
Gold Finger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2013, 01:21 AM   #14
Gold Finger
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
Gold Finger's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Wpg. MB Canada
Posts: 819
Default

Zorfox: I think the relationship between algae and macrophytes is very interesting in the way they are antagonistic to one another but they mutually manage the nutrient loads. Do we really understand the way plants combat algae? If so, what is the main mechanism? Why is a high density of healthy plants a deterent to algal growth?
__________________
Ver. 1.0 80 gallon dirt goldfish tank (defunct)

Ver. 2.0 bare bottom same tank another approach (defunct)

Ver. 3.0 Pool filter sand same tank now

Farming Algae

Goldfish are among the worst fish for beginners.
Gold Finger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2013, 02:25 AM   #15
Zorfox
Wannabe Guru
 
Zorfox's Avatar
 
PTrader: (5/100%)
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Gainesville, FL
Posts: 1,433
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gold Finger View Post
Zorfox: I think the relationship between algae and macrophytes is very interesting in the way they are antagonistic to one another but they mutually manage the nutrient loads. Do we really understand the way plants combat algae?
I think we are just beginning to understand this concept. In fact, as far science is concerned is relatively new.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gold Finger View Post
If so, what is the main mechanism?
Quite simply Allelopathy plays a large role in this. It is a fascinating subject of particular interest to hobbyist. Apparently macrophytes (plants) can excrete allelopathic substances which reduce algae blooms. I had no idea plants were capable of this until I started with planted tanks. I kept hearing that the plants will out compete algae for nutrients, CO2 and light. Well this isn't the African savanna where one antelope has to feed a lion pride. We are providing excess of all necessities to the plants. So I started researching it and realized they are not just competing but killing each other off lol.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gold Finger View Post
Why is a high density of healthy plants a deterrent to algal growth?
The more plants the more allelopathic chemicals. I do wonder if water changes affect this defense mechanism. I suppose I have a lot more research to do.
Zorfox is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 03:36 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Planted Tank LLC 2012