Okay To Mount Needle Valve Before Solenoid?
Planted Tank Forums
Your Tanks Image Hosting *Tank Tracker * Plant Profiles Fish Profiles Planted Tank Guide Photo Gallery Articles

Go Back   The Planted Tank Forum > Specific Aspects of a Planted Tank > Equipment


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-09-2012, 02:46 AM   #1
AaronT
Collectoritis Patient
 
AaronT's Avatar
 
PTrader: (203/100%)
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: MD, USA
Posts: 2,308
Default Okay To Mount Needle Valve Before Solenoid?

Is there any reason not to mount a needle valve before a solenoid?

The reason I ask is because I'm currently running a Burkert 6011 and it gets hot, really hot, and has started to hum. I'm running a SS Ideal valve after it. I'd like to switch to a Clippard Mouse solenoid as I've read mostly great things about them.

So is there any reason not to set things up in this order?

CO2 Tank -> Regulator -> Ideal Needle Valve -> Clippard 15490-2 Single Port Manifold -> Clippard Mouse EV-2M-12 solenoid -> 10-32 with hose barb -> check valve -> inline bubble counter.

Honestly I can't see how it makes any difference, but there's always that nagging feeling that you're missing something.
__________________
In the D.C., Maryland, or NOVA area? Come check out The Greater Washington Aquatic Plants Association! www.gwapa.org
AaronT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2012, 02:48 AM   #2
freph
Planted Tank Guru
 
PTrader: (22/100%)
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Fayetteville, NC
Posts: 2,255
Default

Putting a solenoid before the needle valve has the benefit of not putting pressure on the needle valve itself constantly. Solenoid before needle valve means shutoff of gas before it hits the needle valve if it's off.
__________________
20L - Decommissioned Mini M - Decommissioned
freph is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2012, 02:56 AM   #3
oldpunk78
ಠ_ಠ
 
oldpunk78's Avatar
 
PTrader: (106/100%)
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: 96007
Posts: 5,428
Default

It's fine.
oldpunk78 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2012, 03:01 AM   #4
kevmo911
Planted Tank Guru
 
kevmo911's Avatar
 
PTrader: (32/100%)
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 3,895
Default

Yeah, it'll work fine. It's actually nice, in that it solves the issue of the tiny Mouse outlet having to support a relatively massive needle valve.
kevmo911 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2012, 01:56 AM   #5
AaronT
Collectoritis Patient
 
AaronT's Avatar
 
PTrader: (203/100%)
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: MD, USA
Posts: 2,308
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevmo911 View Post
Yeah, it'll work fine. It's actually nice, in that it solves the issue of the tiny Mouse outlet having to support a relatively massive needle valve.
That was pretty much my reason for wanting to do it this way.

Thanks for the reassurances guys.
__________________
In the D.C., Maryland, or NOVA area? Come check out The Greater Washington Aquatic Plants Association! www.gwapa.org
AaronT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2012, 02:32 AM   #6
Bettatail
Planted Tank Guru
 
Bettatail's Avatar
 
PTrader: (87/98%)
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 2,530
Default

better not.
there are couple reasons as on the pneumatic circuit, the on/off valve(in this case, a solenoid) is always placed before the flow restrict/control valve.
1. once the solenoid valve open, there is "rush" of pressured air to fill the other side of the solenoid, instant air pressure increase may cause trouble. If the solenoid is before the needle valve, the needle valve can act as flow restrictor to prevent this "rush" to the rest of the air hose space.
To place a needle valve before the solenoid is fine only if the cavity volume between the needle valve and the solenoid is small, so with only limited amount of pressurized air in this cavity. once the solenoid open, it doesn't "push" too much to the rest of the air hose space or create trouble.
2. water issue, if check valve fail, the water always gets into the needle valve first, but hard to go through needle valve(then reach the solenoid) because the orifice is too small. If solenoid after the needle valve, the water gets in the solenoid first, that is what we don't want to see.

Last edited by Bettatail; 12-10-2012 at 03:23 AM.. Reason: spell
Bettatail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2012, 02:41 AM   #7
AaronT
Collectoritis Patient
 
AaronT's Avatar
 
PTrader: (203/100%)
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: MD, USA
Posts: 2,308
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettatail View Post
better not.
there are couple reasons as on the pneumatic circuit, the on/off valve(in this case, a solenoid) is always placed before the flow restrict/control valve.
1. once the solenoid valve open, there is "rush" of pressured air to fill the other size of the solenoid, instant air pressure increase may cause trouble. If the solenoid is before the needle valve, the needle valve can act as flow restrictor to prevent this "rush" to the rest of the air hose space.
To place a needle valve before the solenoid is fine only if the cavity volume between the needle valve and the solenoid is small, so with only limited amount of pressurized air in this cavity. once the solenoid open, it doesn't "push" too much to the rest of the air hose space or create trouble.
2. water issue, if check valve fail, the water always gets into the needle valve first, but hard to go through needle valve(then reach the solenoid) because the orifice is too small. If solenoid after the needle valve, the water gets in the solenoid first, that is what we don't want to see.
Yeah, that makes sense.

So what IS the solution then? Do you have a custom manifold tapped for an 1/8" NPT outlet?
__________________
In the D.C., Maryland, or NOVA area? Come check out The Greater Washington Aquatic Plants Association! www.gwapa.org
AaronT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2012, 03:04 AM   #8
oldpunk78
ಠ_ಠ
 
oldpunk78's Avatar
 
PTrader: (106/100%)
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: 96007
Posts: 5,428
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronT View Post
Yeah, that makes sense.

So what IS the solution then? Do you have a custom manifold tapped for an 1/8" NPT outlet?
I would recommend just trying it 1st before you start looking for a solution to a problem that may or may not exist. What betta is talking about is viable but not so much in a really small, relativity low pressure system.
oldpunk78 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2012, 03:10 AM   #9
Bettatail
Planted Tank Guru
 
Bettatail's Avatar
 
PTrader: (87/98%)
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 2,530
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldpunk78 View Post
I would recommend just trying it 1st before you start looking for a solution to a problem that may or may not exist. What betta is talking about is viable but not so much in a really small, relativity low pressure system.
+1, you can try it, the solenoid after the ideal valve, but please make sure the fitting space is really small so not much pressurized air store between.
(30psi air pressure differential still be big trouble if in large amount and short time release)
Bettatail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2012, 03:08 AM   #10
Bettatail
Planted Tank Guru
 
Bettatail's Avatar
 
PTrader: (87/98%)
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 2,530
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronT View Post
Yeah, that makes sense.

So what IS the solution then? Do you have a custom manifold tapped for an 1/8" NPT outlet?
I don't offer the custom made manifold any more, take too much time to make
Bettatail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2012, 02:54 AM   #11
Bettatail
Planted Tank Guru
 
Bettatail's Avatar
 
PTrader: (87/98%)
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 2,530
Default

there are three solutions for your setup:
1. get a different solenoid, now the available choice of solenoid is Burkert 2822 low power consumption solenoid in stainless steel.

2. find a 10-32 stainless steel 10-32 thick wall, hollow bolt or screw, so you can connect the manifold outlet(10-32) to the pipe bushing with this bolt/screw, the bolt/screw still hold pretty well due to it is thick wall.
I found some of these screws, only 1mm hollow/orifice, need a 3/8" heavy duty bolt cutter to take out the screw heads, so you know how sturdy this piece is.

3. metal work the manifold, poke a UNF port on it and find a right size adapter to connect it to the Ideal needle valve. (this option is not less than likely, need tools and know how)
Bettatail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2012, 02:54 AM   #12
Bryanmc1988
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
PTrader: (34/100%)
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: San Diego - CA
Posts: 877
Default

you can tap a 1/8" port your self as i have done the same on my own manifold which i have a clipared also
Bryanmc1988 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2012, 02:07 PM   #13
AaronT
Collectoritis Patient
 
AaronT's Avatar
 
PTrader: (203/100%)
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: MD, USA
Posts: 2,308
Default

I might go ahead and try it then. I plan to thread the manifold directly into the Ideal valve so that's about as short as I can make the connection. I'm also only running 15 psi and the end of the line is open and feeds into the return pump of my sump so back pressure shouldn't be an issue. The only issue I can see is possible cavitation of the pump impeller.
__________________
In the D.C., Maryland, or NOVA area? Come check out The Greater Washington Aquatic Plants Association! www.gwapa.org
AaronT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2012, 04:02 PM   #14
AaronT
Collectoritis Patient
 
AaronT's Avatar
 
PTrader: (203/100%)
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: MD, USA
Posts: 2,308
Default

The 6011 I have is a 24 volt AC. The power supply I got outputs 24 volt AC at 50 watts. Could that also be contributing the the excessive heat?

It's hard to find a 24 volt AC adapter (wish I'd known this) let alone one with the 400 ma output I'd need to get the output just right.
__________________
In the D.C., Maryland, or NOVA area? Come check out The Greater Washington Aquatic Plants Association! www.gwapa.org
AaronT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2013, 06:56 AM   #15
KTern
Algae Grower
 
KTern's Avatar
 
PTrader: (2/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: California
Posts: 61
Default

Betta is against hooking the solenoid after the metering valve but with the Parker H3, I like the looked of it being before the solenoid and it is easier to turn and read the knob on the valve. It has been running for about a month or 2 now with no problem. Here is my setup that i hook it up to a cerges reactor
KTern is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:21 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Planted Tank LLC 2012