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Old 03-17-2003, 05:55 PM   #1
kor4ever
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I was looking on CNN today and St.Louis has the higest crime rate of any city in the country, Kansas City was also up there. Man Missouri needs to do something, good thing after one more year, I will probably been in some graduate school somewhere else in the US

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Old 03-18-2003, 03:23 AM   #2
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Sorry to hear about that, but I must say that I am glad to find out that it is not the NY-NJ metropolitan area!

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Old 03-18-2003, 11:47 PM   #3
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Its sad to say but this world needs an enema ! :roll:

Eye for an Eye and it would all stop real quick !

Buck :twisted:
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Old 07-01-2003, 12:19 AM   #4
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kor4ever, What part of St.Louis you live in. And also, where do you get your plants. I want to find some more lfs in the area.
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Old 07-01-2003, 12:57 PM   #5
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Yeah, I used to live in the NY/NJ Metro area, when it was at its highest and it improved considerably (or maybe other areas of the country got worse?). Now I live in the New Orleans area, and it has one of the highest murder rates in the country!
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Old 07-01-2003, 04:01 PM   #6
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yeah, eye for an eye. Anyone hear that Willie Nelson/Toby Keith song that's been playing?

"Justice is the one thing you should always find,
You got to saddle up your boys, you got to draw a hard line.
When the gunsmoke settles we'll sing a victory tune
Then we'll all head down to the local saloon.

We'll raise up our glasses against evil forces, Singin'
Whiskey for my men... and beer for my horses."

Well that about sums it up IMO--gotta love that Willie Nelson!

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Old 07-06-2003, 07:50 AM   #7
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Hey I don't want to offend here but has anyone ever thought that the reason that the crime rates around the Western World is contributed largely by two factors.

1) The capitalist system requires many of the participants to be under privileged so that a very small minority can gain the most.

2) The system also needs the majority of people to be totally ignorant of politics and the monetary and financial system. If you don't educate the people they turn into savages and without money and power savages will kill others because of their ignorance.

So when you look at the crime rates, you should think about who you voted into power and see what their policy is on education and welfare for all. Good bet that they don't give a hoot about the little people only those with education and power!!!

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Old 07-06-2003, 03:40 PM   #8
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Like there was never any crime in a socialist, communist, or even fascist society?

Rumples, with all due respect, your description of the capitalist system seems more like an X-Files conspiracy than an economic system. Anyone with a good idea and/or some hard work can be successful in a capitalist society. That is both the beauty of the system, and its downfall. It requires a person to actually apply themselves. Something many people aren't willing to do. How many times have you heard people say "I'm not going to work at Mc Donalds..". Why not? Because it is beneath them. That is one of the reasons why so many jobs have left the US. People fell that the work doesn't pay enough or is too menial. Hey, $2 is better than $1, and $1 is better than $0. Can anyone say "welfare state"?

Education is always the answer isn't it? The answer is never morality, decency or thoughtfulness!
I have a very hard time with this argument Rumples. Case in point, being from a family of immigrants, as you Aussies also are, my ancestors didn't have the education. They worked, faced discriminations, and overcame. No one even dreamed of stealing, or hurting someone else. No, education is not the be all end all of answers.

People are becoming desensitized to violence, and violence begets violence. TV shows glamorize criminals and criminal behavior. It becomes cool. How many people reading this watch some of these shows? Unfortunately there are a lot of people who like to emulate the attitudes and behaviors they see on these shows. Once again, it becomes cool. I saw a bit on the news about a video game for sale. The games motive was to steal cars. Ridiculous! To make matters worse, the vicarious car thief earned extra points by beating prostitutes to death with a golf club. Wonderful! If I had an eight year old you could be sure jolly ol' St. Nick would be dropping that one off.

I would agree that people are ignorant, but again, their ignorance is not cause by some great capitalist conspiracy. Many people are ignorant because they are just plain not interested. Mention Play Station, Eminem, Joe Millionaire, who won the American Idol or the latest stupidity out of Hollywood, and they know. Heck, the people of New York elected a senator who never lived in their state! Now that is ignorance.

When I look at crime rates I do think about who I elected into power. I know what their stance on education and welfare is. The only good bet is that most of their constituents are the ones who don't give a hoot!
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Old 07-07-2003, 02:59 AM   #9
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Hey I think that we are coming from parrallel arguments here. You say that crime is based on desensitisation and lack of moral fibre. Yes this is true but when someone is educated they are more likely to understand the full ramifications of their actions. Added to this is the notion that educated people make better informed decisions. Particularly in regard to elections.

Our society is morally bankrupt because there are those who pray on the ignorance of others. People watch those crap shows and games because they have little understanding or want of learning. I would rather watch a Documentary anyday than watching some senslessly violent show.

I don't think that it is a capitalist conspiracy, but ignorance is necessary for the system to function as it does. I am sure that if people had good education and could read (meaning understand and analyse the information) then informed actions would result and ergo crime rates would be lowered by at least half.

Added to this is the fact that 85% of all criminal cases in Australia are property related. Property ownership is a capitalist concept, "what's mine is mine". People generally steal because they do not either have the means of production or they need to steal so that they can live. If everything belonged to everyone, and everyone had equal access (not what has been tried in the past) then there would not be any reason to steal or kill someone for their wallet. The key is education, even the Greeks understood that. Educating all will help change the system and move towards Utopia.

BTW I am a director and owner of a company which has an annual turnover of about 2 Million dollars. I am not coming at this from some university drop out position, I profit from a postion of power, but that does not mean I have to think it is OK. I just do this for money and to live my life. 8)

Rumple
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Old 07-07-2003, 04:35 AM   #10
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The more thought I give this, I think you are right, our points do parallel each other to some degree.

But I really don't think that everything boils down to education. In my opinion, morality is not something that is taught in a classroom, nor should it be. Morality, decency and common sense are learned through life experience. The "University of Life", so to speak. I don't think you necessarily need to be taught cause and effect or the consequences of actions in a classroom.

People do pray on the ignorance of others, that is true, as ignorance has a bit of a connotation of innocence to me. However, I would rather say they pray upon the stupidity of others. People don't watch crap or emulate T.V., radio, movies or the inappropriate actions of others because they did not receive an education (education is something I think you and I need to define!)or are ignorant. Many people do these things because they are just plain stupid. They watch crap, listen to garbage and act as if they are mobsters or criminals because those people are nothing more than stupid. People buy violent video games and toys for their children because they are stupid. Stupid does not simply imply uneducated. No amount of education is going to eradicate stupidity.

I still think you are being a bit "over the top" in your views on the workings of the capitalist system. My goodness Rumples, I feel I should pull out my old copy of the Manifesto, dig up Karl and Frederick and go out on strike. I've nothing to lose but my chains!! Maybe I should go out and join the ranks of the "Fat Cats" and exploit the working class. Damn the proletariat. Onward running dogs! I still like you , but I really think you are being a bit extreme. Utopia... come on!!! Keep waiting for the Great Leap Forward, just don't hold your breath!

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I am not coming at this from some university drop out position, I profit from a position of power, but that does not mean I have to think it is OK. I just do this for money and to live my life.
It is obvious you are a well educated man, and I am glad you are doing well. But boy and how, do you seem to profit from "the system"!

This has been a very fun discussion indeed Rumples. I have enjoyed it immensely. I feel you and I will never agree on this one. However, I guarantee you and I will always agree on our love of planted aquaria!!

You neo-conservative friend in New Jersey,

Mike
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Old 07-07-2003, 08:24 AM   #11
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Touche

I agree with regarding the stupidity of others. For some no amount of education will remove the factor of stupidity.

But I would roughly define education as being able to read and write with the ability to question of what is being presented before oneself. Reading is defined as understanding of the text before oneself or the information as presented. (This accounts for humans reading signals from human interaction, such as the ability to detect falsehoods through demeanor)

Yeah not holding my breath, especially with the current witch hunts that are occurring through out the world. Just like being in the dark ages with the inquistions. Bring out your heretics. However that is another topic, probably one which many of your country men would disagree ( depending on level of indoctrination) with me.

You are sure right able the love for planted aquaria, although can profess to know to much about this at present.

Rumple
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Old 07-07-2003, 05:06 PM   #12
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Yeah not holding my breath, especially with the current witch hunts that are occurring through out the world. Just like being in the dark ages with the inquistions. Bring out your heretics. However that is another topic, probably one which many of your country men would disagree ( depending on level of indoctrination) with me.
That was qiute a while ago, Rumple. Almost 50 years since "Tail Gunner Joe" and HUAC were up to their antics, and even then it must be left in it's historical context! Indoctrination? Again, a bit over the top.

As far as your aquarium, you are a bright, intelligent man! You'll get this whole aquarium thing down soon enough, of that I am sure!

Mike
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