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AlgaeFix: Experiences, Experiments, and Thoughts

41K views 38 replies 22 participants last post by  Patriot 
#1 ·
As described in the title. I think it's worth sharing. If you prefer a briefer read, scroll down to the "Thoughts" section to see the real meat of this article - which describes how AlgaeFix works, why I believe it presents a risk to livestock, and how that risk can easily be reduced.


EXPERIENCES:

My first experience was an overwhelmingly negative one.

I had an incurable case of severe green water in a certain tank, that persisted for months. Believe me when I say incurable! I tried everything. I've easily beat green water in other tanks, but not this one. The only thing that had any real effect was continuous diatom filtration, and it came right back when discontinued.

I heard AlgaeFix worked wonders on green water. So as a last resort I tried it. Within minutes, every guppy in the tank was stunned; drifting without control, with periodic bursts of erratic movement. I performed massive water changes. Some recovered, some died. The green water was slightly reduced, but recovered quickly; the AlgaeFix was obviously effective, but the exposure was too brief.

I checked my dosage, and was sure I hadn't overdosed. Normally I would have thrown the bottle straight into the trash, but desperation makes you do funny things. So I tried again, but this time with a half dose.

This time, some of the guppies soon showed mild respiratory distress. Like in a tank with too little oxygen, or too much CO2. I kept an eagle eye on them over the course of the next few hours, ready to perform another massive water change should symptoms worsen. But instead, they recovered fully. The green water did not, and was finally gone - never to return after that single half dose.

I found that curious. So I searched extensively for other people's experiences. Most reported no issues. A minority, but still a significant number, reported problems like mine.

I also found some suggested that when a massive amount of algae is rapidly killed, as you'd expect with green water, that this results in equally rapid oxygen depletion. Makes sense, but it didn't seem like a perfect explanation.

I killed more algae with the second reduced dose, yet it had far less effect on the fish than the first. Others had killed equally massive green water blooms with the full dose, without issue. And some had used it with only minor algae of other types, yet had fish deaths. This explanation didn't quite fit.


EXPERIMENTS:

A year went by, and still I wondered about this. I did some more research, and then it was time for an experiment.

I crossed my fingers and added a full dose of AlgaeFix to a different, healthy tank, with no green water or other types of algae. Mild and temporary respiratory distress again occurred in a few fish, disappearing in an hour or two. Perhaps oxygen depletion due to dying algae partially explained my first awful experience, but as there was no algae this time, there shouldn't have been any respiratory distress.

I waited a few weeks, did a few water changes. Tried the full dose again, same temporary respiratory distress. Apparently whatever negative effect AlgaeFix was having is something the fish could adapt to.

A few more weeks, and a few more water changes. This time, I added the full dose, but split it into quarter doses, spread out throughout the day. No symptoms of respiratory distress at all.


THOUGHTS:

The active ingredient of AlgaeFix, Busan 77, is a surfactant. In more familiar terms, it's similar to soap; though this isn't a perfectly accurate comparison.

It alters the surface tension of water, and enhances its wetting properties. Both of these affect the exchange of gasses, water, and other chemicals transfer across semi-permeable membranes, like those that encapsulate cells.

The method by which it kills algae is known. With the properties of water altered, excess water moves into the algal cells faster than they can eliminate it. The end result is that the algal cells, being rather rigid, literally burst.

Now doesn't that sound like it would also have some effect on gills? I certainly think it does.

My Googling has been less than satisfactory, as many of the relevant papers are on sites that require money to access. But this much I have been able to find:

Gills (and lungs) make their own surfactants. They are an essential mechanism by which they self-regulate gas exchange and other processes. Exposure to additional surfactants does disrupt O2 exchange, though I can't find whether it increases or decreases it. It does increase the absorption of many other chemicals, and surfactants are often used explicitly for this purpose.

Maybe others can provide other details.

Regardless, I find sufficient evidence to believe that adding a full dose of AlgaeFix, all at once, is a stressful event for fauna. Whether that stress is small enough to go unnoticed, or big enough to cause deaths, depends partially on other factors like dissolved oxygen content.

But in all cases the stress can be reduced by dividing doses up into smaller doses with a few hours between each, which gives fauna time to adapt.

This doesn't seem to change its effectiveness on algae. Though I admit I have little experience here, as I still consider AlgaeFix a method of last resort, at least in a tank. My favorite use is in a bucket, as a plant dip to remove algae.

That's all. If you have your own experiences, experiments, and thoughts, please share!
 
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#2 ·
Similar experience, can't remember the product...

I had the same thing happen, probably about 10 years ago. Sure, it got rid of the algae, but wiped out a whole tank of fish. I saw the same thing you did - respiratory distress.

I tossed the product straight out. I don't remember what it was, but it was from an allegedly reputable manufacturer.
 
#7 · (Edited)
I used RCS which I have plenty of culls for, since they are more sensitive to most chemicals than fish.

I have elephant noses, which I can assure anyone, are some of the highest respiration rate and sensitive to chemical fish livestock out there. They where fine even if you treated 3 days in a row.

Algaefix is not suitable for GW from what I've seen and heard.
Hair algae and that's about all.

Plant cells and animal cells are extremely different on several major factors.
This is a Biology question on many exams: "What ways are plant and animal cells different? List 5 key differences"

Equating them is a huge stretch without support.
The EPA's Environment toxicity report on aquatic organism is a bit like the NO3 issue, it's for Blue Gill and trout, trout are extremely sensitive vs a war water tropical fish species. Even so, the EPA report suggest that fish are more at risk to dose than invertebrates(they tested Daphia only).

http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=EPA-HQ-OPP-2007-0834-0017


Plants are not at risk, going about 73ppm, vs 0.28 for Daphia and 0.21 for Blue Gill.
Duckweed is .63 ppm or so.

Without specific test on specific species, it's hard to say. Shrimp are definitely far more sensitive to this product than ANY fish. I've tested this and see no evidence of any fish issues with perhaps 20-30 species, many of which are touchy species compared to things like guppies. Tetras, rare plecos, elephant nose, small cichlids, typical stuff plant folks keep. It is more toxic to green algae that diatoms of BGA, 6x to 100x etc more so.
Most of the diatoms are about like the sensitive fish in terms of toxicity.

CO2 kills fish to, but plenty of people use it:icon_idea
If you do not use it correctly, you will kill your fish with CO2, plenty/many do.
Point is: shrimp will die long long before any fish does. I also tried the 1/2 dose, this had no difference on the algae(still killed it effectively), and still killed a few RCS. Fish had no issues.

Fish stress when you dose CO2 also, but we still have people dosing CO2 24/7 without the same critique:icon_excl
Similarly, we add Excel and CO2 to shrimp tanks, but that reduces the fry production.

How much risk you want to apply/accept is something we all do in this hobby. Suggesting that it's too risky is no different than people saying CO2 is too risky. It is very specific to hair algae and thus a 1-2x treatment type of thing for a few days. So it's not something hobbyists use 24/7/365.
Note: Algaefix and Algae Destroyer(copper based) are 2 very different products, I've sure a few folks have thought they are the same thing.

Toxicology test suggest 2-3x a Excel dosing as Glut is very toxic to many species also, but many do it.
Like Glutaraldehyde, Busan 77 is also a microbiocide. Same with H2O2....and you can kill fish and stress them using those products as well.
 
#8 ·
Let me address this first, should anyone skim my original post and believe I must be an idiot because they then see:

Plant cells and animal cells are extremely different on several major factors.
This is a Biology question on many exams: "What ways are plant and animal cells different? List 5 key differences"

Equating them is a huge stretch without support.
I never even remotely suggested this. What I said in a nutshell is:

1) Busan 77 affects algae by causing their cells to absorb water until they burst.
2) It affects animal gills by disrupting O2 exchange in the cells.

Both of which are well documented, no stretches or assumptions on my part.

Algaefix is not suitable for GW from what I've seen and heard.
Hair algae and that's about all.
Then you've had atypical results. It only takes a quick Google search to easily find dozens, if not hundreds of people who've had great results with AlgaeFix on green water.

Rapid fish death, with symptoms of respiratory distress, is also an atypical result. Still, it does happen, regardless of whether you personally have witnessed it or not.

Now while I didn't make the particular "huge stretch" you previously claimed, I admit I have made a stretch in presuming to know the reason for these rapid fish deaths. I have only tenuous documentation in my favor, and a few experiments.

If I'm wrong, then nothing whatsoever is lost by splitting AlgaeFix into smaller, more frequent doses. If I'm right, and people take my advice, it may prevent a few needless deaths; which is a definite gain.

Yet I've waited two years to write up this information. Between my own uncertainty, and those who seem to feel the need to discredit any new idea, I felt it likely that no one would end up trying it. Making both the initial write-up, and subsequently addressing misleading statements like the first I've quoted from you, an utter waste of effort.

I sincerely hope this will not be the case.

The EPA's Environment toxicity report on aquatic organism...
I've looked up many toxicity reports on my own, looking to find evidence that either supports or refutes my own hypothesis. And I found them insufficient, because they all lack a key piece of information.

They do tell us that a certain amount of Busan 77, constant over a period of a few days (or weeks), was lethal to 50% of the test species.

They don't tell us when within that test period the fish died.

If, for example, the death rate were observed only to rise over time and particularly at the end, then this suggests only chronic toxicity is a factor.

But if there is also a distinct peak at the beginning, then this could support my hypothesis of respiratory distress, caused by a sudden increase in the amount of chemical.

Now if you can provide any report that includes this information, that would be truly useful.
 
#9 ·
I just added the recommended dosage of Algaefix to my 55 gal. I was planning on hitting it three days in a row (no fauna). Should i do water changes between dosage or just wait till the end? I am keeping an eye on the filter and am ready to change the filter floss. Also would adding a flocculant help remove the algae from the water faster?
 
#10 ·
What algae are you treating? From the question about flocculant, I'm guessing it's primarily green water. Flocculant shouldn't be necessary. I'd do a big water change just before the 2nd dose, because that's when you'll see the greatest nutrient spike, released from killed algae.
 
#11 ·
It's hair Algae on the substrate and some of the older plant growth. As for the water i don't know it it's tannis or algae. It's yellowish clouding that always comes back within a few hours of water changes. As soon as i added the Algaefix the water turned from a cloudy yellow to more of a white color.
 
#12 ·
Did a 50% water change and hit it with the second dose. Same as before, water got a little cloudy when added. It definitely is taking it's toll on the Algae! Filter floss was pretty dirty so i went ahead and changes it. I would say the Algae was reduced about 40% after the first 24 hours.
 
#14 ·
If I recall correctly, Algae Destroyer used to contain a different active ingredient, Simazine, which worked by shutting down photosynthesis. It was just as effective at killing plants as algae.

Now Algae Destroyer appears to contain the same active ingredient as AlgaeFix, in the same amount.

Despite the change, I'm guessing they kept it as two separate products just so people could continue to buy a brand they're familiar with; only adding "Advanced" to the name to signify the reformulation.

Maybe because of its old reputation, I haven't seen any reports of using Algae Destroyer in planted tanks. If you want to make 100% sure there are no differences, I'd suggest contacting API.
 
#15 ·
I used my first dose 2 nights ago and I got a spike of nitrite. I thought it was just temporary from excess ammonia from dead/dying algae so I did a 80% water change last night. As of tonight I again have registered nitrites, .25-.50, where before I never got any. Does anyone suppose algaefix kills beneficial bacteria?
 
#17 ·
i admit i didnt read the whole conversation but if it helps, i used algaefix at half doses with no ill effects on fish, shrimp, or snails. i dosed twice in one week at half doses in a 8 gallon tank. i sent the rest of the unused bottle to my cousin stationed in japan for his really bad case of green water in his 90 gallon tank. i told him only dose half, green water cleared within 2 days and his fish are all fine.
 
#20 ·
I've had good results with Algaefix even with higher dosage. I had some bushy clado for a long long time in my tank that I could never get rid of it so I finally gave in and used it. I dosed the recommended amount EVERYDAY for a week and there was no ill effects on the fish or the plants. The discus, otos, and rams were all fine, didn't lose a single one. The clado though was pretty much all dead by the third day, I just wanted to make sure I got it all.

A side note, doesn't dead/dying algae release ammonia? if you had a ton of dying/dead algae like green water would that not cause a spike and in turn kill your fish.
 
#23 ·
I dosed AlgaeFix a few times in my 50 with no obvious ill effects. Tonight, I went poking around to make sure all was well. It was, with one exception. One of my moss balls was looking like it was filtering all the dirt in the tank. I picked it up and found that there were brown spots on it and the bottom was almost all brown. Probably should have taken them out before dosing.
 
#24 ·
Another test

I decided to perform one more test. This time taking a bigger risk by doing it in my main tank with more diverse population, instead of smaller ones. It's a 46G, high light and heavily planted, with 30ppm CO2.

A bit of staghorn, mostly on old and deteriorating vesuvius sword leaves that should be removed anyway; a little more on lower light plants that got too much light and flow. I'll be interested to see the effect (and will definitely trim the plants later). But this is primarily to validate my earlier results in regards to the suspected respiratory effects of AlgaeFix; and the utility of using smaller, more frequent doses to give fish time to adapt.

I removed the bamboo shrimp and Marimo balls. Remaining livestock is guppies, swordtails, cories, neons, otos, cherry barbs, many red ramshorn snails, a golden loach, and a juvenile Ryukin.


2013-01-13:

4:00pm: Measured out a full dose of AlgaeFix as recommended on the bottle, 4ml. The plan is to add it 25% at a time, with three hours between each fractional dose. Added first fractional dose with a dropper, 1ml.

7:00pm: No adverse effects observed, added another 1ml.

7:15pm: Almost all guppies now staying at surface of water, some gulping air. Clear respiratory distress. CO2 is still 30ppm, oxygenation should be fine since I'm already seeing heavy pearling. Also, the swordtails are hiding. Did not see this in any of my previous tests, with fractional doses spaced further apart. Too much, too fast?

8:00pm: Quick recovery. Most guppies and swordtails now behaving normally. But one guppy is looking worse.

10:00pm: All now behaving normally except that one guppy, which is now having severe trouble maintaining normal orientation and buoyancy. It seems to want to stay at the surface, but it only goes periodically in bursts of effort; then soon sinks back down. This is a known weak strain, I previously lost two of its siblings due to a 70% water change. I hate to abort the test on account of this. I also hate to lose this guppy as it's extraordinarily beautiful. So as a compromise, instead of adding the next fractional dose, I turned off CO2, redirected wavemaker to water surface to more quickly reduce the level, and called it a night.


2013-01-14:

2:00pm: Turned CO2 back on, and returned wavemaker to normal orientation.

4:00pm: Lights on. The guppy has seemingly made a full recovery and adapted; it just took extra time, plus a reprieve from CO2 to help it past the crisis. Knocked on wood, and continued with the test. Added fractional dose #3 of 4. The staghorn looks very slightly diminished, could be my imagination. But also see some fish picking at it, which doesn't normally happen.

7:00pm: No adverse effects. Added final fractional dose.

1:00am: Lights out. No adverse effects seen at any time today.


Conclusions:

Well.. It didn't go exactly as planned. Respiratory distress occurred, despite spacing the fractional doses by what I thought was an adequate amount of time.

It seemed to be species specific. Only the guppies and swordtails were affected. Basically, all the livebearers. None of the egglayers were visibly affected, even the scaleless ones normally considered sensitive.

Had I dosed the entire amount at once, I expect the instantaneous stress would have been enough that I'd need to abort entirely with a large water change to prevent many deaths, maybe losing some anyway. And then my lady probably would have killed me, too. Dosing fractionally saves lives! ;)

Will take a few more days to see the effects on algae. I'll post a follow-up with that, and anything else that might occur.
 
#25 ·
And the follow-up.

Weekly water change and trimming performed.

Staghorn was slightly reduced. I didn't expect much, since its a red algae like BBA, which is considered resistant to AlgaeFix.

The guppy that was severely affected continues to do well, apparently no worse for the wear.

But another guppy that took longer to stop gulping at the surface than most has developed dropsy. This is an extremely rare occurrence in my tank keeping history, so it's hard to write this off as coincidental. It's currently being treated with Kanamycin medicated flake.
 
#27 ·
I wish I had googled before I used AlgaeFix. I killed about 10 fish with it using the full dosage.
I have continued using it at half dosage but the fish seem to dislike it (you can tell when they taste it in the water they go crazy) and it doesn't get rid of the ugly black algaes in my experience. I am thinking of throwing in the towel on this chemical band-aid.
 
#29 ·
I've used it without adverse effect on fish and not too much effect on algae. I wonder if the different experiences might be due to dissolved substances in the water, either hardness or TDS. My water is rather hard, 55 GH, 12 KH, and about 1000 ppm TDS, If AlgaeFix does work by making the algae cell membrane leaky, then the higher osmotic tension of my water might make it less effective.

I've recently used it against chara in an outdoor container, the chara had a setback but returned as if nothing had happened. I need to try periodic repeat treatments, I guess.
 
#30 ·
I use it once in a while. I have a fifty with java fern, swords, giant red royals, hc, anubias and others. I have two gouramis and ten black longfin tetras.





After reading the extensive information on this subject, I picked up the Frankenstein, "Fire Bad!" operating principle. The bad boy of the algae killers seems to be anything copper. It is indiscriminate in flora or fauna. The AlgaeFix does not have that. I go by the bottle dosage - for my 50... One teaspoon. I measure the exact amount and slowly drizzle, (as much as you can drizzle a teaspoon), it right into the spray bar flow. IMHO, the key is following the instructions to the letter.

I watch the fish close with them showing no excitability or stress. The water gets white-smoky for an hour or two, and clears. It puts a pretty good slap on the "easy" algae. BBA I have to either cut the affected leaf or remove the rock and scrub the Hell out of it. I do all this in separate combination of the 1-2 Punch. There always seems to be SOME small bit of algae. But it's maintenance that makes it easier to deal with.
 
#31 ·
After reading the extensive information on this subject, I picked up the Frankenstein, "Fire Bad!" operating principle.
LOL!!

The bad boy of the algae killers seems to be anything copper. It is indiscriminate in flora or fauna.
No doubt. Never bothered to experiment with it, by itself or in combo, and probably never will. Some of the other commercial algae killers are almost as bad. One common ingredient works by blocking photosynthesis. I don't think I need to say more..
 
#32 ·
If you have your own experiences, experiments, and thoughts, please share!
I got hair algae growing in my moss wall and it was pretty bad. Everytime I pull them the moss goes along.

After asking Tom Barr I decided to try from a small bottle. After 2 weeks I can see hair algae dissapearing. I lost one juvenile endlers.

I bought 2 more 16oz bottles. Good product.
 
#35 ·
Note, it does kill the green hair algae, it does NOT kill Caldophora.
Another alga that it did kill was a brown, likely diatom covered green brown hair algae that infested moss and aerial roots.

I've not seen any other species of algae that it kills, so it's highly specific.
Amano shrimp seem a bit more sensitive than RCS. Fish do not like it, but they seem pretty tolerant.

It has no effect on BBA I've seen in any tank.

It targets the cell wall channels and if you add enough of it, it'll kill plants too.
QAC's is another general name for the active compound.
 
#36 ·
.....The active ingredient of AlgaeFix, Busan 77, is a surfactant. In more familiar terms, it's similar to soap; though this isn't a perfectly accurate comparison.
I'm confused, as usual. What is Busan 77? The bottle says the active ingredient of AlgaeFix is Poly[oxyethylene(dimethylimino)ethylene(dimethyliminio)ethylene dichloride].



 
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