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Metering(needle) valves selection for our CO2 pressurized system

124K views 336 replies 65 participants last post by  rajdude 
#1 · (Edited)
Post this just want to give some more options on choosing the right metering valves for our DIY CO2 rig build.
please post a picture of the metering valve if you are the lucky guy have one of the valves from the bottom of the list.

also in this thread.
*Solenoid valves selection
*Adjust bubble rate.



Metering/needle vales, Cv (flow coefficient) under 0.1 only


Swagelok 20 series needle valve, soft seat stem. Part number SS(B)-20R*
Orifice: 0.08"
Cv: 0.09 (at 2.5 turn full open)

Swagelok O series needle valve, soft seat stem. Part number SS(B)-OR*
Orifice: 0.08"
Cv: 0.09 (at 8 turn full open)

Pneumadyne (Pneumatic Control System), 700 series needle valve, Part number: C070301/C070501/C070601, made in UK
Thanks to kevmo911, who shine the light on this 700 series needle valve and present the .pdf data
Orifice: N/A
Cv: 0.09 (at 12 turn full open)

SMC AS2000 series needle valve, Part number: AS2???-*
Orifice: N/A
Cv: N/A ( At 4 turn SCFM is 0.88 SCFM, after 4 turn flow rate spike)

Clippard MNV-3/4 series needle valve, part number MNV-3* , MNV-4*
Orifice: 0.07"(MNV-3), 0.067"(MNV-4)
Cv: N/A (at 4 turn SCFM is 1, Cv is under 0.03 before 4 turns, after 4 turns, Cv spike)
owned

Ideal valve 52(brass)/54(stainless steel)--2 series, Part number 52-2-*, 54-2-*
Orifice: 0.0625"
Cv: 0.082 (at 20 turn, 22-24 turn full open)
owned

Hoke 2300 series metering valve, 8 degree angle stem
Orifice: 0.062"
Cv: 0.075 (at 20 turn full open)
owned

Parker Hannifin NM series, Part number *-NM?-*-*-*-*
Orifice: N/A
Cv: 0.055 (at 14 turn full open)
owned

Fabco NV55/FC55 needle valve, Part number NV-55, NV-55-18, FC-55
Orifice: N/A
Cv: N/A (approximately at 0.04, The SCFM is 1.7 at 10 turn full open, fully open flow rate similar to swagelok 31 series, actual lower flow control precision is similar or better than swagelok M series metering valves)
owned

SMC AS1000 Series needle valve, Part number AS120?-*
Orifice: N/A
Cv: N/A (approximately at 2.83 SCFM at 10 turn, but the flow curve is concaved, at 4.5 turn is 0.71 SCFM compare to NV-55 which is 0.95+ SCFM at 4.5 turn.
owned

Parker Hannifin HR series, Stem type 5, Part number: *-H5?-*-*-*
Orifice:N/A
Cv: 0.049 (at 15 turn full open)
owned

Parker Hannifin NS series, Part number *-NS?-*-*-*
Orifice: N/A
Cv: 0.042 (at 14 turn full open)
owned

Swagelok 31 series metering valve, Part number SS(B)-31R*
Orifice: 0.062"
Cv: 0.04 (at 10 turn full open)
(Tested, Orifice is too big, at low turn doesn't work well, avoid it)
owned

Parker Hannifin HR series, Stem type 4, Part number: *-H4?-*-*-*
Orifice:N/A
Cv: 0.032 (at 15 turn full open)

Swagelok Belows-sealed metering valve, Part number SS-4BMG, SS-4BMW(weld port)
Orifice: N/A
Cv: 0.019 (at 6 turn full open)
(Tested, Orifice is too big, at low turn doesn't work well)
owned

Swagelok M series metering valve, Part number SS(B)-?MG*, SS(B)-?MA*
Orifice: 0.056"
Cv: 0.03 (at 9 turn full open)
double pattern, dual handle
Cv: 0.026 ( at 9 turn full open)
(a lot of the swagelok M series that we can obtain are used with damaged/partially damaged stems, or older models Nupro M series, the precision lower than the new, so choose wisely)
owned

Ham-Let HF1300 series metering valve, 3 degree stem angle, Part number HF13??-*-*
Orifice: 0.055"
Cv: 0.03 (at 11 turn full open)

Fujikin UN series metering valve, L mark on top of the vernier handle, made in Japan
Orifice: 1.8MM
Cv: 0.03 (at 14 turn full open)
owned

Hoke Millimite 1300 series metering vale, 3 degree angle stem.
Orifice: 0.047"
Cv: 0.024 ( at 18 turn full open)
owned

Parker Hannifin HR series, Stem type 3, Part number: *-H3?-*-*-*
Orifice:N/A
Cv: 0.021 (at 15 turn full open)
owned

Fujikin High Pressure series metering valve, Part number: N/A, made in Japan
Orifice: 1.6MM
Cv: 0.017 (at 12 turn full open)

Fujikin UN/DUN series metering valve, made in Japan
Orifice: 1.5MM
Cv: 0.015 (at 14 turn full open)

Ideal valve 52(brass)/54(stainless steel)--1 series, Part number 52-1-*, 54-1-*
Orifice: 0.0313"
Cv: 0.019 (at 20 turn, 22-24 turn full open, approximate Cv 0.008 -0.009 at 10 turn)
owned

Parker Hannifin HR series, Stem type 2, Part number: *-H2?-*-*-*
Orifice:N/A
Cv: 0.014 (at 15 turn full open)
owned

Swagelok 21/22 series metering valve, Part number: *-21???-*, *-22???-*,
These are the mystery discontinued swagelok precision low flow control valve, and thanks to kevmo911, who shine the light on the 21/22 series and present the .pdf data.
Orifice: 0.02"
Cv: 0.007 (at 8 turn full open)
owned(TESTED! Due to the small orifice and long needle stem of this valve, the actual CV/turn and flow rate at low turn is a real small number, 0.1 bubble adjustment is possible on JBJ bubble counter)
Kevmo911 is the hero to bring this metering valve back to life...

Hoke Millimite 1300 series metering vale, 1 degree angle stem.
Orifice: 0.047"
Cv: 0.011 ( at 18 turn full open)
owned

Hoke 2300 series metering valve, 1 degree angle stem
Orifice: 0.062"
Cv: 0.01 (at 20 turn full open )
(Tested, Orifice is too big, at low turn doesn't work well)
owned

Parker Hannifin HR series, Stem type 1, Part number: *-H1?-*-*-*
Orifice:N/A
Cv: 0.007 (at 15 turn full open)

Fujikin PUN series metering valve, made in Japan
Orifice: N/AMM
Cv: 0.004 (at 10 turn full open)

Swagelok S series metering valve, Part number SS(B)-SS* , SS(B)-SM*
Orifice: 0.032"
Cv: 0.004 (at 10 turn full open)
double pattern, dual handles
Cv: 0.001 ( at 10 turn full open)
owned

Ham-Let HXF1300 series metering valve, 1 degree stem angle, Part number HXF13??-*-*
Orifice: 0.03"
Cv: 0.004 (at 11 turn full open)

Hoke Micromite 1600 series metering valve.
Orifice: 0.031"
Cv: 0.0008 (at 18 turn full open)
owned

Parker Hannifin HR series, Stem type 0, Part number: *-H0?-*-*-*
Orifice:N/A
Cv: 0.0004 (at 15 turn full open)
All Parker HR Series valves, the valve cartridge and the valve body are inter-changeable.
owned

Brooks instrument Extremely low flow NRS needle control valve, Model 8503, 8504, 8513, 8514.
This metering valve is the same design(non rising stem) as Parker Hannifin HR series, and same as Parker HR series, low CV for extremely low flow control.
8503, angle pattern, normal handle
8504, straight(inline) pattern, normal handle
8513, angle pattern, digital handle
8514, straight(inline) pattern, digital handle
stem type Cv.
type 6, CV: 0.052
type 5, CV: 0.017
type 4, CV: 0.0057
type 3, CV: 0.0013
type 2, CV: 0.00066
type 1, CV: 0.00029
owned

Chell Ultra-Fine Mechanism Needle Valve, needle 1 model, Made in UK
Orifice: N/A
Cv: N/A
(The lowest flow rate valve I know, for our application. 20 turn full open. Max flow rate is 20 SCCM(standard cubic centimeter per minute), which is 0.02 liter per minute at full open, 145psi pressure differential. Listed price: $500+, manufacture handling/shipping: $115, Total cost to get it in the us $600+.)
owned.

Vacoa valve
0-1.8CC, the spaceship valve, flow rate too low, not for our fish tank.
owned


Please let me know if you see any other metering valves that not here and can be used in our DIY CO2 pressurized system.




what solenoid do you want to use?

Clippard solenoid(MME-2SDS-*), and Burkert 6011 solenoid are the most commonly seen in our application, they are 1/8" NPT ports and ready to fit pipe fittings.
but they are 6.5 watt and 4 watt power consumption and create a lot of heat for 8 hours on, also, the fluid media(CO2) flow is never fast enough to draw away the heat. The heat, creates core melting, metal(spring) fatigue, cracked O-ring problems, and shorten the lives of these valves.
Burkert is a tag better because it is 4 watt and create less heat than a Clippard(MME-2SDS-*).
Parker Skinner B series 1/8" NPT ports solenoid valves(6 watt, 7 watt) are not that common, but actually better, because they are full metal body, faster heat dispatch than the said Clippard and the Burkert.
Parker Skinner C series solenoid valves are even better, 1/8" NPT ports, full metal body and only 2 or 3 watt power consumption, but hard to find one.
The clippard mouse solenoid is the best I know so far, only 0.67 watt power consumption and designed for low flow applications(that is our setups), 1 billion official on/off cycle life, full metal body, doesn't even feel warm when operate. But this valve is not 1/8" NPT ports ready, need adapters or sometimes, need some metal working to make them connect to pipe fittings.

These solenoid valve are all high quality industrial valves, they all have on/off cycle lives that is not less than 100 million. Failed solenoid are commonly seem in our applications because the way we use it, for at least 7 hours on and the fluid is not be able to take away the heat. Constantly heated/overheated condition shorten the lives of solenoid valves and fail them.
So whichever creates less heat(less power consumption) wins.


How to adjust the bubble rate.
For no pressure in the post body system start up.
1. set the output pressure of the regulator at 30-50 psi.
2. close all needle valves, turn on the solenoid.
3. open the needle valve, slowly, monitor the bubble rate, every time you turn the needle valve, wait 20 seconds or longer, depends on how long the tubing from the needle valve to the diffuser, the longer the tubing, the longer time you need to wait. stop when the desire bubble rate reach.
4. (this step omitted if using a reactor-no backward pressure)wait until the diffuser starts cracking out bubbles, then wait 20 minutes.
5. Adjust the needle valve again, 20 seconds or longer waiting time each time you turn the needle valve, once the desire bubble rate reach, stop.
6. let the system run for half an hour.
7A. if there is no change of bubble rate after half an hour, you can lock the locking handle of the needle valve(for SMC AS1200 needle valve), and it is all done.
7B. if there is no signification change of the bubble rate, repeat step 5 and 6.
7C. if there is significant change of the bubble rate after half an hour, use soapy water leak check the system, from the outlet of the regulator to the diffuser(if no leak, what is the needle valve you use?:))
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The Metering(Needle) Valve Selection for CO2 Pressurized System
Complete Leak check, Double Stage Regulator Pressurized system
 
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#199 ·
it is about 30% fail rate for used regs, the chance of both of them fail is weak, but I don't have good faith on them because I had two of the same model brass regulators long time ago, all diaphragm damage.
The same model stainless steel regs that I got were good.
They are the same model of the GO, Swagelok or HOKE regulators, I am not really sure if the actual manufacture is Harris group, because I can't find it from Harris or Airproducts, and of course, it is not a Victor either.
Since it is the same model as GO, I suspect the actual manufacture is in JAPAN, just like those swagelok pressure gauges.
 
#202 ·
not be able to update the original post any more, but there is a new metering valve:

Brooks instrument NRS series metering valve
unfamiliar to the hobbyists but it is a big name in flow control devices.

Brooks instrument Extremely low flow NRS needle control valve, Model 8503, 8504, 8513, 8514.
This metering valve is the same design(non rising stem) as Parker Hannifin HR series, and same as Parker HR series, low CV for extremely low flow control.
8503, angle pattern, normal handle
8504, straight(inline) pattern, normal handle
8513, angle pattern, digital handle
8514, straight(inline) pattern, digital handle
stem type Cv.
type 6, CV: 0.052
type 5, CV: 0.017
type 4, CV: 0.0057
type 3, CV: 0.0013
type 2, CV: 0.00066
type 1, CV: 0.00029

in picture is the type 1, highest precision model, with lower CV than a Parker Hannifin H0 model(the best of Parker).
sorry about the distortion, they r cell phone pictures.


 
#205 ·
I think we all need to remember that some of these really super awesome/precise valves cost some serious coin if you're not buying them in an auction or new old stock liquidation type situation. I'm under the assumption that the OP has done some serious research and spent countless hours looking for these things.

With that said, you really have to view this thread as tool to help you identify a valve and how well it's going to work for you. A great example of this is the Parker HR3. It's friggin awesome and I never would have figured it out for myself. It's only because Bettatail and others have spent some serious time on this.

If you're really interested in finding these valves for yourself, learn the part numbers and what they mean and preform searches every day on that one auction site. That's realistically what it takes.
 
#206 ·
Well, right now, if you're building your own rig, there are two realistic options.

The first is the economy option. The obvious choice is the AS-1200. It's a shutoff valve, and would cost you all of $12-15 shipped, new, from SMC, the manufacturer. It has its drawbacks - it's tiny (and therefore fragile), the knob is tiny (and difficult to turn in tiny increments), and in order to put anything on top of it (directly connected), you'd probably have to use both a stainless 10-32 nipple and an epoxy sealant (such as Loctite). And, you'd need a couple 10-32 to 1/8 adapters, which generally aren't available at brick-and-mortar stores. Alternatives are the Pneumadyne and Clippard manufactured valves, which are similarly priced and similarly effective. And both have optional larger handles.

The second option, which costs $10-15 more, is the Parker HR-3 valve currently available on Evilbay. It's currently the most impressive value of all the metering valves anybody has *EVER* realistically suggested for this hobby. I say "realistically suggested" because the super-precise valves are rarely, if ever, available for non-retail-prices. Not the absolute most precise valve, but close, at a fraction of the cost you'll likely ever find for a similarly-effective valve. More precise valves exist, but they're overkill, in my, and anybody else's, *honest* opinion. The HR-2, HR-1, and HR-0 valves would theoretically be more precise (theoretically because nobody here has posted their own comparison test results), as is the Hoke 1600 series valve (which I *have* tested against the HR3 and many of the other low-flow valves). In real-world applications, the HR3 blows away 90+% of the valves on the original list.

Anyway, *right now*, the HR3 is the unarguably best choice for an economical high-precision valve. In a month, or several months (whenever the current Evilbay seller runs out of stock) there will be a number of other high-precision options, especially the Swagelok S series, but also the Swagelok M, Swagelok 21/22, Ideal 1 series, and a few others. They'll cost more, and/or be harder to find. And they'll likely need adapters from 1/8 or 1/4 tubing, or 1/4 M/FNPT.

The one other thing that's really important to remember is that a valve with a large handle is far superior to a valve with a tny handle. For example, a Swagelok S-series valve, with a standard tiny handle, is functional. That same valve, however, with a vernier handle (whose most effective characteristic is not the gradients on the handle, but simply the increased diameter of the handle) is extremely precise. Why? A vernier handle circumference is 2.6 inches, while a standard handle circumference is 1.5 inches. So, a 1/2-inch turn on a vernier handle is a much smaller change than a half-inch turn on a standard handle. For this same reason, you'll see people recommending using a pair of pliers to adjust the standard needle valve on of of the generic regulator rigs (Milwaukee, Aquatek, Azoo, and clones) - it increases the functional diameter. A larger-diameter handle equals more precision, regardless of the valve. And the HR3 has a large handle, on top of its impressive precision.

That said, I'd love to get my hands on one of the Brooks valves, if only for the sake of experimentation. Most, or all, of the variants look like they'd be perfect for us ...and that digital knob looks pretty freakin' cool ;)
 
#211 ·
The first is the economy option. The obvious choice is the AS-1200. It's a shutoff valve, and would cost you all of $12-15 shipped, new, from SMC, the manufacturer. It has its drawbacks - it's tiny (and therefore fragile), the knob is tiny (and difficult to turn in tiny increments), and in order to put anything on top of it (directly connected), you'd probably have to use both a stainless 10-32 nipple and an epoxy sealant (such as Loctite). And, you'd need a couple 10-32 to 1/8 adapters, which generally aren't available at brick-and-mortar stores. Alternatives are the Pneumadyne and Clippard manufactured valves, which are similarly priced and similarly effective. And both have optional larger handles.
kevin, wait until you have experience with newer model SMC AS1000 series needle valve, you may have different opinion, :)

The one you talk about is the bigger needle stem, old and discontinued SMC AS1200.

it is about $25 retail, the SMC AS1000 series needle valve.
I believe the needle valve on ADA co2 system is the SMC AS2000 series, works well, and it will give you good idea how a current model of SMC AS1000 performs. The SMC AS1000 has lower flow control and precise than the SMC AS2000 series.
 
#208 ·
Tested! now I am settle with the metering valve for my personal co2 system.

Takes too much turn to increase/decrease the bubble rate, miss the swagelok S series which is fast and accurate to set the bubbles. lol.
There is a problem of this metering valve though: like the Parker hannifin H2A, H3L, the brooks NRS needs higher pressure differential.
They all have the extremely small orifice and longer orifice passage(tube), so water/oil/dust can easily settled in the passage and clog the valve if the pressure differential is low. Higher pressure differential, water/oil/dust can easily be pushed through, so better to set the regulator output with higher pressure.

also, due to small orifice, need particle filters, the manual recommend a 2 micron particle filter:icon_eek:
I guess a 7 micron particle filter is sufficient because the flow rate is about 1-2 sccm (1 bubble/second). Orifice is big enough for the 7 micron particles to pass through.



 
#257 ·
Hi bettatail, I'm trying to put together a budget friendly co2 setup. Could only find these Brooks NRS series valves at the price that I can afford.
I'm actually not even sure which version I'm getting since the ebay listing wasn't very clear. Guess I'll know when it gets here. Anyways, in your opinion, other than having to turn it many turns to get the desired bubble count(this is probably dependent on which version I get right? since you got the most precise version), if I set my output pressure to say 40psi, the needle valve should work fine right? Or should I set my output pressure higher?
Thanks for all the info btw. It was very helpful
 
#213 · (Edited)
This looks like a cute Parker. There is also some weird Parker metering valve with a rotating tube connecter, lost the image.



This is from Circle Sea Control -



Anyways, Betta tail, can you tell me what you used for the two Parker H3 build you did?It had two silver DICI bubble counter, forgot what else.

Also, can one remove the Vernier handle from the H3? I remember reading that you can remove it to prevent tempering.

And how in the world did this guy get 400 dollars metering valves? Hope he giving you commission, he sold 3 today, one of which was to me.

Finally, isn't this a bit over kill? Once you get to 1 or 2 bps, shouldn't the cheap retail needle valves be enough? I don't think someone would need 0.3 or 1.3 bps, right? I mean, look at those paintball guys. They're using this -
 
#214 ·
the second one looks interesting, but I checked circle seal control, couldn't find anything, probably they made it in the past.

don't remove the vernier handle from the H3L, no need to, I took apart a H3L to the very single part, and regret after I put everything back, messed up the orifice, needle stem got stuck and it was ruined.

I don't know which system you refer to, the Airproduct stainless steel?
here is the parts, in gas flow order:
co2 tank
CGA320, SS.
Airproducts stainless steel regulator
1/4 npt male to 1/8 npt male stainless steel hex reducer
Burkert stainless steel 2822 solenoid
1/8 npt all male Tee, stainless steel
and two H3L metering valve
1/8 npt male to 1/8 npt male elbow, stainless steel, 2 of them
the bubble counters.

 
#215 ·
^ Yes, that the beauty I was talking about.

1/8 npt all male Tee, stainless steel - Alright got it, thanks.

Quick question, out of all the custom regulators being sold, not just you, what do you think the most popular is? Would it be the 0 - 60 working pressure ones , so basically the ones with max working pressure of 30 or 50 psi.

Or would it be the one that go from max working pressure of more than that, say 100 max.
 
#217 ·
Hi oldpunk78,

Interesting; I typically run about 22 PSI on my split system (1 CO2 tank/1 regulator/2 needle valves/2 aquariums). Is there an advantage to running at a higher PSI assuming you are already achieving an adequate PPM of CO2 at a lower operating pressure?
 
#219 ·
To Seattle Aquarist - Not really, if you're getting enough Co2 then your working pressure is fine. If you end up deciding to do more tanks with some atomizer then you would run into problems.


I ask this question because I'm getting conflicted answers. Some say you can control the bps with a lower psi while others claim you will do fine with a higher psi and a good metering valve. The regulators you buy will all look the same (same series, model) so you have to take note of the working pressure gauge.

I find that the ones that are lower ( 0 - 60 ) are cheaper then the higher up models. You can end up with two models that look exactly the same but if one of them is able to do 100 psi, you would want that regulator for upgrades in the future.

Some of the custom systems that are build are max 30 - 45 psi and if someone doesn't know, they can be stuck with a regulator that can only power 1 atomizer. Then what you have is a custom build expensive regulator that can not do what a cheap retail regulator (preset 30 - 50 psi) can do.

So I wonder why people prefer the lower pressure and higher grade metering valve, it seem like over kill for our purpose. Would 1.5 bps be any difference to 1.3 bps?

But then again, at 30 dollars that Parker H3 is too good to pass up, even if it does look hideous.
 
#226 ·
The price is just ridiculous, I mean, they sell the normal needle valve (the one that on every retail kit) at 14.99 and that chrome brass and is way-way smaller.This guy must of jacked a Parker trailer or something. Sadly, the item is already ship, one is good enough. When I get it, I'll try to make a comparison between it and the cheapo needle valve on the same Co2 line.

Also, I know the pdf does state that you can remove the handle to prevent tampering, but I think I'm just leave the handle on.
 
#227 ·
H3 comes with a manual and step-by-step instructions for various levels of dis-assembly - taking off the handle takes a second. Other parts are a bit more complicated.
 
#229 ·
To everyone who pm me the last three days, will get the answer by tomorrow morning....
Haven't loggined the last three days, errr, pm box bombarded, will answer each question, no sleep until sun rise anyway, so plenty of time.
 
#230 · (Edited)
First, solenoid, the low wattage, working pressure and right size connection ports are what needs to be kept in mind when you are looking for one.
Second, after burkert 2822 all gone, there is no such SS burkert solenoids fall in the range for our CO2 system on eee-bay.
Third, who pm'ed me looking for a solenoid, expect good news because I know what's available on eee-bay.

add:
for Third, good news is not that good, found only three type 300 Burkert solenoids on eee-bay, 4 watts power consumption is ok but price not attractive.
The type 300 burkert solenoid is old model, most people searching for 6011, but didn't know the type 300 solenoids exist.
and there is type 200 too....
 
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