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killing fish in the freezer?

11K views 81 replies 39 participants last post by  CatSoup 
#1 ·
hi all,

more of a discussion point than anything else.... i have read many many forums where its suggested that if you need to kill a fish you should put it in the freezer......

why is this? wouldnt knocking it on the head be quicker?
 
#41 · (Edited)
That's a really bad question to ask me. I breed and train aggressive hunting dogs for a living and I have to hit them all the time. Sometimes they just refuse to listen, and choose to fight for pack dominance. Sometimes I wish I could toss a couple of them in the freezer. >__>

You gotta be inhumane, you gotta lay the smack down, whistle their ears off, wet them, or you shock them with collars. Whichever tells your dog that you're the dominant one.

I deal with this "humane" bullshizzzz all the time, especially when someone who is uneducated and uninformed about the dog training field tells me that the way I treat my pack is inhumane. No fuqqing shizzznazz, they're not humans, they don't understand as we do. You can't reason with an animal, hell, you can barely even tell them what to do at times.

Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating for the inhumane treatment of animals. I do love my animals, but not to the point where I care about the way they feel as they die. There's a point where they become "just fish." If given the choice, of course any sensible person would choose to end their pet's life painlessly, I am no different, but that doesn't mean that every single animal alive warrants the same treatment. Who is to say that it is wrong to kill your fish with a hammer? Or to freeze it?

Whether clove oil, hammertime, or just tossing it in the freezer. It's just another animal that you are putting down. It's all about morality and perspective, to each their own.
 
#44 ·
Um you do realise that the dominance/pack leader dog training theory is 30 years out of date and there are much more humane ways to train dogs? Hitting an animal is abuse plain and simple, why use pain and fear to train when you can use much better ways?

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#46 · (Edited)
Please enlighten me about my career that I spent years training and studying for. Not to mention I now have years of experience working with professional trainers.

First off, 30 years out of date? Did the dogs evolve to no longer recognize the chain of dominance in those 30 years? You realize no matter how many years go by, dogs will always live and respond to a pack hierarchy right?
It's their instinct and natural way of life, it's how their society is structured.

Now, I'd like to hear about the methods you think I use, methods that I should use (the "more humane and less ignorant" ones), and methods that you THINK your local dog trainer uses that are humane.

Hitting an animal is abuse plain and simple, why use pain and fear to train when you can use much better ways?
This statement shows me you've never trained an animal unwilling to obey before.

I never said that I only used negative reinforcement as a training tool. I don't beat my dogs when I want them to listen to me, I don't instill in them a fear of my fist. I only punish them in a manner that I deem is aggressive enough to for them to respond submissively to, nothing further. I am not a dog-beating maniac, I am their master.

I only said that humane is in the eye of the beholder, and that humane treatment of animals for someone else can be different than what you believe it to be.

IE: You think me slapping my pack's snouts or behinds when they're extremely disobedient is inhumane. Yet to the dog they really don't care, they only know it as punishment for disobedience. You say it's pain, abuse, that is teaches them fear. Yet when I raise my hand to strike them, they do not flinch. Do you know why? Because they are not fearful, they do not feel abused or frightened of what is coming to them.
 
#47 ·
Please enlighten me about my career that I spent years training and studying for.

Really, I'd like to hear about the methods you think I use, methods that I should use, and methods that you THINK your local dog trainer uses.

I never said that I only used negative reinforcement as a training tool-don't put words into my mouth. I only said that humane is in the eye of the beholder, and that humane treatment of animals for someone else can be loosely defined
You went to school for dog behaviour? I'm sure than you are familiar with operant conditioning and the affects that positive and negative reinforcers have on behaviour and the psyche. Science has shown that dogs have similar emotional centres in their brains and can in fact experience fear and anxiety. Using negative reinforcement esp physical pain can cause unneeded anxiety on dogs. It can also cause learned helplessness and ptsd. I don't agree with most local trainers, unfortunately the industry is unregulated and anyone can call themselves a trainer. Instead I rely on information from those who have actual phds in canine and animal behaviour for information on what is the best way to train and teach.

Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk 2
 
#48 ·
Ps I own 2 terriers I am well versed in stubborn and defiant dogs. Science has come a long way in 30 years, we have learned a lot about animal behaviour in that time. If you feel like reading up on it, Google Patricia mcconnell, Karen Pryor and Sophia yin, all well respected experts in animal behaviour. You can also search for dominance /pack theory debunked and find lots of good info.

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#50 ·
Ps I own 2 terriers I am well versed in stubborn and defiant dogs.
No. You're talking about medium level defiant dogs. You don't EVER need to punish a dog like that physically.

I rehabilitate dogs that have bitten and mauled people. OVERLY aggressive dogs.
I work with HUNTING dogs. Dogs that refuse to obey for treats, let alone acknowledge your commands or positive reinforcements.

Prison-caliber dogs for lack of a better metaphor. Not small-time sheltered rebel dogs like yours.
 
#49 ·
If there was a school that gave me a PhD in Dogs, I would go. No, I worked as an understudy for a kennel breeder in my area. I know all about dog psychology, I've read many books.

I know everything that you just told me, (The debunking of dog pack dominance is actually controversial in the field as it is NOT CONFIRMED OR ACCEPTED BY ALL PROFESSIONAL LEVEL BREEDERS/DOG TRAINERS) but again, you are missing the freaking point of my posts. We're not here to talk about dogs and how dogs think, behave, and learn. Because I know for a fact that given long enough discussing, or even if you watched me in action, you would agree that what I'm doing is in no way abusive or inhumane. To an outsider with no experience, of course it sounds inhumane when you imagine it in your head, but that's all it is. You simply not knowing what you're talking about.

Back to the point. We're talking about the degrees of "humane" and how the meaning of such a loosely defined word can change from individual to individual, be them animal or man.

I projected a question for you to answer, what defines humane? What makes it so it's okay to clove oil a fish, but not to freeze it, or not to hammer.

Is it nothing more than a simple measure of pain?
 
#52 ·
Whoops hit enter, 4am lol. The reason that dog training is so controversial imo is because people don't like to admit when they are wrong and have a hard time evolving. I highly recommend reading the book, when pigs fly by Jane killion, it is all about using clicker training with stubborn dogs.

In any case humane to me is respect and a desire to minimise suffering.

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#69 ·
In my case Dog-Fish are my hobbies/passions in life. I do private human training for people that own larger bred, dominate dogs.

Koehler method was developed to get dogs ready for military for battle. The mindset at that time toward the dogs was more medieval. There wasn't much concern administrate;y if they came home or not.

"However, there is no argument in the community that negative reinforcement is an effective and HARMLESS training tool if done correctly."

If by negative re-imforcement you mean Hanging a dog, using a Prong, Choker, Zapping it with an E-collar or shaking it then your quote that's just not completely true.

At best it's acceptable depending on the "community" of training one is involved in. Hunting, Schutzhund, Civil PP, Obedience Comp. maybe, Therapy, Service dogs, Agility, no...not so much.

Now if if you might mean Negitive re-enforcement via ignoring the dog holding back praise, ball or food yes I agree and I use that approach.

As far as "Old School" I learned that way 30 yrs ago. I reject those methods as I prefer the Sirus method and that's the style I train in. I want my dogs to "excute" commands because they want to not out of fear of punishment.

Just to bring it home I've owned Catahoulas that have high pointed in Open Bays, Am. Bulldog that was Civil PP trained, Rottweiler that is retired Schutzhund dog...All have gotten TDI certs, all championed in conformation.

I hunt myself and among other this have hunted hawgs in Tn. the traditional way. I do understand the challenges with working a pack. However, all animal training is ultimately Silmulus/Responce. It's really only a matter of which stimulus you choose to present to the dog.
 
#55 ·
I am not disagreeing with you that there are other ways to train dogs. I work part time at my local Petco as a dog/puppy trainer, and of course I am not allowed to hit any of the dogs, so positive reinforcement is the ONLY method I use.

However, there is no argument in the community that negative reinforcement is an effective and HARMLESS training tool if done correctly. when it comes to stubborn or ill-tempered dogs, sometimes negative reinforcement is the most efficient way to teach them.

You would not believe the stories I've heard of people beating their ill-behaved dogs and then having them lash out and biting them.

I do not do that crap. I am a passionate trainer with lots of experience and knowledge, so I find it insulting that I would even be grouped into the same category as these amateur trainers who have no clue what they're doing.

Most of them only have misconstrued conceptions of what dog behavior and psychology is, and all they know is the [censored][censored][censored][censored] they found on Google.

I do not make any of my dogs suffer. But I do punish them accordingly to their offense. If they maul another dog, or a trainer, they get the slap to the face. It's the equivalent of getting bitten by the pack leader. I don't go out of my way to rough up the dog, or to beat it into submission. Just a simple verbal scolding followed by a sharp and quick physical punishment.

So in your sense of the word, this is humane, even though it causes the dog discomfort and pain.
 
#59 ·
But what if the fish is too small, like a neon tetra to smash on the head. My tetras were infested with some sort of parasites that caused some sort of mucus to build up around their bodies. They were already weak and in pain most likely. I just threw them in the freezer and they were dead in less than a minute.
 
#61 ·
I know some people say a few drops of clove oil before putting it in the freeze causes the fish to lose consciousnesses.

honestly the best way to kill something is fast, hard, and never miss. I have been in situations before that have been pretty bad and required immediate euthanasia, like when my dog escaped our house and was hit by a slow-moving truck just outside of our driveway, he was hit with just enough force to break 3 legs, several ribs, ruptured his intestines and puncture a lung. I had a relative go back in the house and bring me my gun and we ended it then and there. That dog was not going to make it and I wasn't going to make him suffer. It was messy but they only thing I could do.

I would do this with any pet that really needed it. The few times I have had to take out a fish I have just taken a heavy brick to them (for the small guys). For the bigger guys, I have used the disposal, and a blender on high (Seems bad, but they're gone in a second and don't feel a thing)

I see freezing reccomended for all kinds of animals, especially the ones deemed not "worth" taking to a vet (such as hamsters, rats, fish, etc), and as a result a LOT of small pets really suffer in the freezer. In small pets, the extremities can suffer severe frostbite before the host dies. They stop moving because it becomes painful to move muscles once they fall under a comfortable temperature.

If you have to take anything down, then it should either be at a vet, or, if you are SURE you can do it 100% properly NO chance of mistakes, at home, with a proper, quick, painless death, even if it makes you feel bad or uneasy. If you can't stand to watch it, you shouldn't try to kill it at home!
 
#62 ·
As a few have said the best method for euthanasia is using clove oil. As far as decapitation goes you need to stun the fish first as nerve tissue is tolerant of anoxia, and the brain may continue to function for some time after decapitation. Now on to the OP's question as far as freezing fish. Many fish are able to cope with very low temperatures and just because a fish cannot respond to a stimulus when hypothermic does not guarantee that it cannot perceive it. I have seen it mentioned that you can place a fish in a small amount of water and add several of those CO2 tablets or alka seltzer tabs(or if you have a CO2 system) put in large quantities of CO2 but to me that seems would not be the fastest way for euthanasia. I would still go with the clove oil method as it seems to be the method that is most widely accepted as fast and humane as it can be.
 
#67 ·
As I stated above the brain still functions after decapitation. Watch the mouth of a fish after you decapitate and see it open and close its mouth for several minutes afterwards.
 
#64 ·
I think carbon dioxide poisoning is a very peaceful way to go. I had a very old pet rat that suddenly became paralyzed one day. The vet wouldn't put him down. I looked up on the internet and followed directions to mix a certain amount of baking soda with vinegar in an aquarium and set the rat in a little box on a towel and slowly add more and more vinegar to the tank around the box. He curled up, yawned, and went to sleep as the high level of carbon dioxide took effect and when he was unconscious I added more vinegar so that the co2 rose to a fatal level. He just went to sleep and never woke up. Very humane. I'm not sure that fish would behave the same way because they seem pretty uncomfortable when co2 rises too high in an aquarium, but a very peaceful way to put down small animals.
 
#66 ·
I'm glad you researched and figured out a more kind way to euthanize your rat, but I am really disturbed that a veterinarian would not do it for you. That seems really unconscionable. I have NEVER enjoyed euthanizing, but sometimes you take one look at a critter and know that they are in so much pain/discomfort that it truly is the kindest thing to do and have to put yourself and your qualms about taking their lives aside.
 
#75 ·
I never liked the idea of putting fish in the freezer, first of all it's where I keep the food I'm going to eat plus I think it takes about the same amount of time to die in the trash can/toilet as it does waiting to freeze to death.

I personally let my fish die in the tank or if you will at home just like I would want to be treated. If the have some decease that I can't treat another night in the tank isn't going to make a difference in the grand scheme of things and if it's contagious the rest of the crew already has it anyway. But I have never had a problem buy letting them die in the tank and I have rarely if ever tossed a live fish in the trash, toilet, or freezer but none of them sound like a better way to go unless you've got fish morphine.
 
#77 ·
I do the same thing with ill animals. Unless something is so horribly injured that there is no way it will ever recover and is going to be in agonizing pain for an extended period of time. Like that baby turtle I mentioned in a previous post. I have Buddhist leanings and tend to believe that if something isn't suffering badly, then letting it live out its natural lifespan and finish its life cycle is the way to go. I don't think it's cruel. It's just the pain factor that I can't deal with -- I've been around waaaay too many mortally wounded creatures that are suffering and in such severe pain to be able to just walk away and let them continue hurting for any period of time.
 
#79 ·
As to the use of a gun comment, I am not sure i could hit a fish, at least not any I own (maybe my bigger pleco, but definitely not a threadfin or khuli loach). And I am fairly decent with a gun. Besides digging the bullet out of wherever it winds up and explaining to the police why I fired a gun in my apartment are more than I'd want to go through for a fish. In the lab we overdosed them on MS222. It works good as long as you buffer the pH. Quick and painless (since it blocks neural conduction). Problems with home use: short storage life when mixed, and requires special disposal considerations.
 
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