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Old 04-05-2013, 12:14 AM   #14
Gold Finger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plantbrain View Post
You are beating a dead horse.
Algae actually has very little biomass relative to plants per unit area.
So you can doble that biomass in a short time frame, but the expect is still next to nothing relative to a plant, say duckweed which can double every few days, Azolla can also. But as the plants and algae grow at exponential rates, they become quickly limited by other factors and by space, self shading, low O2 levels due to respiration during the dark cycles etc etc.

Theory is one thing, reality is quite another.
then there's management of the ATS and export vs grabbing a handful of weeds and then selling them here on TPT.

I sold 250$ worth of plants this week.
When you sell 1/10th of this, 25$ for your algae, come talk to me.

In lakes, most of the biomass is algae because there's often not much plant biomass. You can design all you want, but the algae require more flow and mixing, and more light to even come remotely close, and those 2 things in artificial culture requires more energy. You have to manage this puppy also.

Aquatic plants for wastewater treatment. See Reddy and Smith, 1984,

ATS' are better at removing and maintaining very low ppb's ranges.
At higher nutrients, plants are better. Think about it like this : Elephants and mice are both herbivores that like grasses. Which can handle a low grass biomass area over time? Mice. An elephant can eat a lot more though when there's an ample food supply.

That's one somewhat imperfect analogy, but you get the point.

For planted tanks, we add NO3, we are not concerned about maintaining ultra low NO3 levels. Unless you raise cold water trout etc, no real reason to go this route. Non CO2 planted tanks tend to have N limiting conditions.

For reefs, where there is little input and export, they are quite useful.
Still, I'd say the Zooxanthellae like a little bit, not much, but a little N and P to color up and do well and a decent skimmer can get rid of other stuff.

I've used ATS in the past before getting into plants, and the plant filters got more and more interested.

But then why have a plant filter at all? Just make the entire scape and tank itself the filter.

Export is plant cuttings which you can give or sell. Inputs? I add nutrients, I'm not trying to export them, I'm trying to keep the levels up to help the plants grow.

Fish? I've bred maybe 50 species in planted tanks over the years.

Well, go ahead and play with the ATS's, but you'll need t prove these things to yourself over time. I had to and thought many of the same and similar things myself back in the day.

Cannot fault anyone for that, least I'd have to slap myself for doing it too

BTW, algae are not limited by nutrients in planted tanks.
Tom's post really nailed all of the factors which I have to contend with in my scrubber desing and have helped me create an excellent scrubber which I would put up against any plant scrubber. (thank you Tom, if you see this) I will get back to him directly when I have sold some algae for $25, which I am now convinced that I will do. I will certainly not be the first to sell established algae filter screens . Meanwhile I am posting my thoughts here for my own benefit and for any interested onlookers.

First I want to say that there is no doubt that a tank full of healthy plants is a wonderfully eloquent and effective solution to the algae issue and the best filter of all... but only for those who want this end result. There are those like me who want big dirty plant destroying fish which won't get along with masses of beautiful plants. We want all the plants we can have but we have chosen a fish-first aquarium which does need a scrubber. No one thinks these things belong on a plant-first tank.

That being said I have come to believe that the algae horse is far from dead. My first experiments put plants and algae head to head and the plants won. I now know this happened because i PUT BIG healthy plants up against algae starting at the invisible spore stage. If I had put young plants up against established algae the algae would have won. Both plants and algae export nutrients very well and trying to determine which one exports more is very hard to do. It is apples and oranges. The factor which makes algae a better candidate for a scrubber is reliability. Plant filters need steady levels of nutrients and other factors to keep from getting out of whack and getting covered in algae, but algae filters adapt to fluctuating conditions and don't get covered in plants when conditions are less than perfect. They bounce right back. I think this is why the big tanks at marineland use algae scrubbers and not plant scrubbers, and maybe it is why more and more reefers are trying out algae scrubbers over plant scrubbers. I think Tom is right in implying that algae scrubbers need more designing and better design. I also think I have come up with such a design. I am writing a patent application and testing prototypes so I can't disclose it yet.
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