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-   -   CSM+B missing some important Traces (http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=441721)

happi 09-24-2013 03:47 AM

CSM+B missing some important Traces
 
CSM+B is missing these Traces:

Chlorine
Cobalt
Sodium (we can add this through Baking soda)
Rubidium
Nickel
Vanadium

Sulphur (we can add this through sulphates)



Potassium - Protein synthesis, water and charge balance, enzyme activation.
Boron - Chlorophyll production, flowering, root growth, cell function.
Carbon - Required for all organic compounds.
Calcium - Cell wall stability and permeability, enzyme activation, cell response to stimuli.
Chlorine - Water and charge balance, photosynthesis.
Copper - Component of enzymes utilized in redox reactions that take place during photosynthesis.
Iron - Required for photosynthesis, component of enzymes utilized in redox reactions.
Magnesium - Component of chlorophyll, enzyme activation.
Manganese - Formation of amino acids, enzyme activation.
Molybdenum and Cobalt - Required for nitrate reduction.
Nickel - Enzyme activation, processing of nitrogenous material.
Sulfur - Component of proteins and the coenzymes that are involved with nutrient utilization and growth.
Zinc - Chlorophyll production, enzyme activation.

Why does it matter? Nickel help absorb Urea, if you are dosing seachem Nitrogen and using CSM+b you wont see the best results. i think csm+b can be improved simily by ading adding some NiCl2. Cobalt, i dont think we have to worry much about this one.



the reason i ask because am looking for a better Trace than the CSM+B, i was looking at Azomite trace element, i think it got tons of trace elements. but i never used it before, has anyone ever used it?

ua hua 09-24-2013 04:32 AM

I'm very curious about this stuff myself. I have been thinking about ordering some from Amazon but haven't heard much about anyone using this. I think I remember seeing someone used it in clay root tabs they made but don't remember where I saw that. I know they use it in aquaculture and as a feed additive so it will be safe for our livestock.

I always try to find natural products that can work for our purposes. I actually made some clay root tabs some time ago and added kelp meal to them. I would love to hear from someone that has used this but I have a feeling there isn't many people. I wonder if it has some similarities to montmorillonite clay or Calcium Montmorillonite clay. I actually use Calcium Montmorillonite clay in my pond for my koi and have for some years now. It may be worth the $8 to try it out. Whats the worst that could happen?....

happi 09-24-2013 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ua hua (Post 4347377)
I'm very curious about this stuff myself. I have been thinking about ordering some from Amazon but haven't heard much about anyone using this. I think I remember seeing someone used it in clay root tabs they made but don't remember where I saw that. I know they use it in aquaculture and as a feed additive so it will be safe for our livestock.

I always try to find natural products that can work for our purposes. I actually made some clay root tabs some time ago and added kelp meal to them. I would love to hear from someone that has used this but I have a feeling there isn't many people. I wonder if it has some similarities to montmorillonite clay or Calcium Montmorillonite clay. I actually use Calcium Montmorillonite clay in my pond for my koi and have for some years now. It may be worth the $8 to try it out. Whats the worst that could happen?....


i think i have seen some website who claim they used it under substrate but never seen anyone use it as liquid trace, am not sure if that is even possible with Azomite, if this did not work i think i will try to add those traces seperatly. the problem will be getting a accurate measurments yo make the csm+b little bit better, i was thinking about making it more like Seachem Trace.


the worse i could think of that could happen is that it might add too much metals into the water if not done correctly, far as root feeding goes i think osmocote is a better choice, but i really wanted to make a new liquid trace.

happi 09-24-2013 05:14 AM

i think you were talking about this website

http://www.aquaticplantenthusiasts.c...d-topsoil.html

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/f...neralized.html

ua hua 09-24-2013 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by happi (Post 4347545)
i think i have seen some website who claim they used it under substrate but never seen anyone use it as liquid trace, am not sure if that is even possible with Azomite, if this did not work i think i will try to add those traces seperatly. the problem will be getting a accurate measurments yo make the csm+b little bit better, i was thinking about making it more like Seachem Trace.


the worse i could think of that could happen is that it might add too much metals into the water if not done correctly, far as root feeding goes i think osmocote is a better choice, but i really wanted to make a new liquid trace.

I don't know why you couldn't make a liquid trace out of it.

Just mix it in water but at what %, I don't know the answer to that. From what I have read people mix it at 1tbs./gal. for feeding vegetables but that would be way more than what is needed for use in an aquarium.

happi 09-24-2013 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ua hua (Post 4347705)
I don't know why you couldn't make a liquid trace out of it.

Just mix it in water but at what %, I don't know the answer to that. From what I have read people mix it at 1tbs./gal. for feeding vegetables but that would be way more than what is needed for use in an aquarium.


i have heard its not very soluble in water, the only way to find out is to try it first and see what will happen, all we need is someone who can break down the numbers for us similar to making csm+b solution.

ua hua 09-24-2013 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by happi (Post 4347785)
i have heard its not very soluble in water, the only way to find out is to try it first and see what will happen, all we need is someone who can break down the numbers for us similar to making csm+b solution.

I would love it if someone could figure out the numbers for a mixture but that is way over my head. I was a little concerned with some of the heavy metals like the copper. I don't know how that would affect inverts but they do use it in aquaculture for farming shrimp so you would think if it was harmful to inverts they wouldn't use it to raise fish and shrimp.

I still may just get some and make up some clay tabs to put around certain plants after my soil becomes depleted in the future.

happi 09-24-2013 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ua hua (Post 4347817)
I would love it if someone could figure out the numbers for a mixture but that is way over my head. I was a little concerned with some of the heavy metals like the copper. I don't know how that would affect inverts but they do use it in aquaculture for farming shrimp so you would think if it was harmful to inverts they wouldn't use it to raise fish and shrimp.

I still may just get some and make up some clay tabs to put around certain plants after my soil becomes depleted in the future.


in those links i posted, they said its OK to use with shrimps.

if someone could help me figure out the numbers i will give him credit for his work when ever i come up with better Trace mix.

Jack Gilvey 09-24-2013 12:04 PM

Just when I get my CSM+B solution made and my dosing finally figured out you want me to worry about vanadium deficiency ? Oy. :-)

roadmaster 09-24-2013 12:15 PM

I once asked about Azomite on Tom's forum as possible mixture with soil based sediment.
Some expressed concern's over the number/% of metal's according to data sheet.

Tmuck44 09-24-2013 01:31 PM

wouldn't you get some trace elements out of your tap water?


Posted from Plantedtank.net App for Android

happi 09-24-2013 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tmuck44 (Post 4348625)
wouldn't you get some trace elements out of your tap water?


Posted from Plantedtank.net App for Android


yes, but people like me who use 100% RO water wont get all the trace elements, the reason i use 100% RO to have a better control on the nutrients.

happi 09-24-2013 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Gilvey (Post 4348449)
Just when I get my CSM+B solution made and my dosing finally figured out you want me to worry about vanadium deficiency ? Oy. :-)


people using csm+b should be fine, we been using it for long time now, all am saying is that it can be improved further.

Jack Gilvey 09-24-2013 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by happi (Post 4349161)
people using csm+b should be fine, we been using it for long time now, all am saying is that it can be improved further.

I know. :) Will certainly follow along!

dzega 09-24-2013 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ua hua (Post 4347817)
I would love it if someone could figure out the numbers for a mixture but that is way over my head.

i think easiest way is to base calculation simply on Fe. if you know Fe amount in that particular trace mix, and you know what ppm you aiming for.. it cant get simplier that that. and when you get your dose based on Fe, check for Cu you adding with that dose


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