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Building a sump?

8K views 49 replies 12 participants last post by  dasob85 
#1 · (Edited)
Hey guys, picked up a 40 breeder from petco at their sale and figured since I will be building a stand for it, why not also put in a sump? I've always wanted to try it and I think it will be a good learning experience for a 100+gallon tank in the future :) I basically want to figure out some of the questions right now before I build a stand to make sure the sump will fit. Ideally I would like to fit a 20H as the sump. Unfortunately the DIY stand builds I looked at all seem very sturdy but dont seem to have enough space for a 20H. I'll look for other stand builds but if not, will a 10 gallon work as the sump? I dont want any flooding issues because I didn't have enough reserve volume in the sump. Unfortunately the DIY stand builds I looked at all seem very sturdy which isn't a bad thing but dont seem to have enough space for a 20H.

Anyway, on to the sump system! First the overflow. I think I will be buying one because too many DIY things all at once is a bit too much for me to handle. I was looking at oversized ones with double bulkhead outflows with max flow over 1000gph. (they dont cost that much more than a single) I figured since I would be shooting for 400gph in my tank, I could possibly be really lucky and not get any gurgling or if I do get gurgling, adjust one of the outflows higher to make it a herbie? any thoughts on this plan?

About the actual sump, I think I will avoid a wet/dry configuration and go with a splashless style with foam and random ceramic media I have lying around the house. I dont plan on running CO2 at this minute, but I could see myself taking the co2 off my 12g long and putting it on this. Since a picture would make things more clear, I attached one. Please excuse the bad drawing and handwriting :icon_wink I want to know if the baffles are acceptable and if I could fill the center portion between the pump and the fine pads with ceramic media.

Finally, should I use all pvc tubing or is it possible to use some soft tubing between the sump and the tank?

so quick recap:
1. 10gal sump or 20gal sump? If 20 gal, I think I have to find a less sturdy design for the stand.
2. overflow box: is a double outflow good idea?
3. sump: Do the baffles and water flow look okay?
4. tubing: is soft tubing okay?

Thanks :)
 
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#2 ·
I have not done a sump before. One of the things you mentioned putting in the sump was ceramic media, yet, in your drawing notes there is nothing mentioned for the media.

I too am looking at putting in a sump on my 75 gallon tank. My issues is noise. The tank is in my bedroom and I am looking for ways to have a sump or wet/dry as quite as possible.

If you build this let me know how much noise you have from this design.
 
#3 ·
Oh yea, I drew that last night but kept browsing threads today. I figured some extra ceramic media in the middle wouldn't hurt and I do have some lying around the house.

Since I secretly bought the tank and stuffed it in the attic, I probably wont start building the stand until my birthday in May and I can ask for something as a gift :p and I foresee it taking waaay longer to finish lol. I will definitely post an update when I'm done here though.

btw, about the stand, I found some other designs on another site that used less wood internally but instead used metal braces externally. Any thoughts on stability?
 
#4 ·
A few thoughts:

1) 10g vs 20g: Bigger is always better, but it really depends on what you want to do with the sump. Will your heaters and filter media fit in a 10g? If yes, it's technically big enough.

2) Overflow box: I'm assuming you're talking about a standard commercial hang-on overflow that uses one or more siphon tubes to get the water into an outer box, where the standpipes are located. This is a hard arrangement to optimize. In order to keep the noise from the standpipes down, you want extra capacity. But extra capacity means slower flow in the siphon tubes, which means they're more likely to gather air bubbles and lose siphon. Double units are nice for redundancy at least.

3) Baffles in your drawing look OK. How tall will the middle baffle in the set of three be? You'll need to allow for drain down when the power goes out, and the water level is more or less set by the baffles. I typically estimate drain down at 10% of system volume, so in your case that's maybe 4 gallons.

4) Soft tubing is definitely OK.

Noise in a sump system can come from lots of different points. The "hardest" for most people to solve is probably the standpipes in the overflow box. Most hang on boxes are just an open standpipe, sometimes with a strainer or foam block on it. That's about the worst design possible from a noise perspective. On a lower flow arrangement like this, you should be able to get it relatively quiet with any of the common modifications, i.e. a Durso or Stockman standpipe. You mentioned Herbie, that will be dead silent but is a little more complicated and might be overkill. The good news is it's easy to play with standpipes until you find one that works for you.
 
#7 ·
3) Baffles in your drawing look OK. How tall will the middle baffle in the set of three be? You'll need to allow for drain down when the power goes out, and the water level is more or less set by the baffles. I typically estimate drain down at 10% of system volume, so in your case that's maybe 4 gallons.
Yes, for #2, I do mean the standard commercial ones. I figured it should be easy to raise or lower one of the pipes and attach a ball valve to make the herbie work. Ideally, the double unit itself should be big enough to deal with the flow without making gurgling noises and not lose siphon! I've never used an overflow before so I dont see how it will lose siphon with the upside down U shape. I didn't mention brands yet since that will be one of the last steps in this build but i was looking at the lifereef double, eshopps double or cs102 in order of desirability. I'm not too sure of the difference between the lifereef and the eshopps since the picture is kind of small.

3. the set of 3 baffles are all 13 inches, with 1 inch opening either above or below depending on water flow. i set them that way so that the water has to go through the sponges, but can go over in the event of a major clog. I'm a little confused by what you mean when you say the water level is set by the baffles. Should I lower or raise them? technically in the event of a drain down, all the water can still flow over the set of 3 baffles to the left side right? I calculated I have around 7 gallons of capacity on the left side for extra water.
 
#5 ·
Two drains for the overflow box are good so you can run a quiet full siphon and have the other for emergency. If you are handy it could be possible to drill another hole in the box on the side or bottom so you could have a smaller box, 2 drain boxes are kind of large. Might look into it anyway.

I doubt the DIY stand is not sturdy, most people overbuild stands. See the DIY stand on reefcentral for how tos. If you put a floor in and skin the stand then you can put a tank in that is nearly as wide as your display tank. You won't need to use any center supports either.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1169964

Soft tubing is just fine, in fact it is a good idea for at least part of it as it can absorb some vibration and is easier to deal with when installing and during maintenance. I was fine with all PVC for the drain because the bit that goes down into the sump can be pressure fitted and removed when needed as it is fine if it has a bit of a drip but cannot imagine how you could completely hard plumb an internal pump without going bonkers trying to get it in and out to clean it.

Sump size depends on how much evaporation you get. My 100 gallon tank with a 14 gallon tub sump was a pain as the tub held exactly enough water when properly filled to get through a week and after that I was nagged by the pump pulling air. Now that the tank is covered the sump doesn't lose enough water to notice so I haven't a clue as to how long it would take until the 40 gallon sump would start nagging me!

I am no expert in putting baffles in sumps as my sumps have been irregular shaped and impossible to glue anything to. I just put vertical Poret sponges in with room between for bagged media although actually there isn't anything but spare prefilter sponges ready for emergency use there yet. I would love a couple of baffles so my foam is completely submerged and somewhere on the swiss tropical site is a diagram of how to accomplish that but I haven't bookmarked it and cannot find it.
 
#8 ·
Two drains for the overflow box are good so you can run a quiet full siphon and have the other for emergency. If you are handy it could be possible to drill another hole in the box on the side or bottom so you could have a smaller box, 2 drain boxes are kind of large. Might look into it anyway.

I doubt the DIY stand is not sturdy, most people overbuild stands. See the DIY stand on reefcentral for how tos. If you put a floor in and skin the stand then you can put a tank in that is nearly as wide as your display tank. You won't need to use any center supports either.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1169964
I think I'd get the 2 drain overflow box for ease of mind and if there is one thing I've learned, its to oversize what you want because manufacturer claims are always disappointing lol. Again, I didn't think of the siphon issue but with some of these overflow boxes, the design does seem pretty good.

that diy stand does fit my needs very well! Definitely saving that link and will get a 20H from petco since they are on sale. Although I think if I sanded the super overbuilt one I saw, I could fit in the 20H perfectly. I'll make that decision later on down the road though.

I want to get some of that poret for inside the baffles :) I think 1 of each of the sizes would be perfect.
 
#6 ·
So this answers my "is anyone using a sump?" question thread.

ePlastics.com will cut plexiglass to order so you can make a bigger sump custom fit to your DIY stand for less than you can buy any off the rack plexi sump. I figured its about a 30% savings. The pieces come ready to glue together and their glue is tip top. Mine arrived on the 4th day after I placed my order. Just specify "exact sizes" and you wont lose any specs due to saw blade width.
 
#9 ·
I saw a lot of sumps! I have sump envy! Most of them were trickle ones though. I've always wanted to try and see what makes it work but I've never really had the room or the time. I figured since I'm building a stand instead of using whatever leftover furniture I have, I'll give it a shot!

for eplastics, do they actually have a "sump" category or do you have to provide a drawing of what you want? some of the off the rack sumps I saw were like... 200 bucks! ridiculous for something that is going to be hidden in the cabinet
 
#15 ·
Having a sump is one of the best things I have done (even though it is only a 29 gallon), so it is good to see others that are interested in doing it for freshwater. Anyway, it seems like you have already got a lot of good info already. For a standpipe I built a hofer gurgle buster since the amount of space was pretty minimal in the overflow box. It works very well for keeping things quiet. I used an extra u-tube slid over the CPVC that was plumbed to the sump inlet. It has been working well to keep things quiet there (other methods exist for that purpose, but I worked with what I had being cheap), and it worked to minimize surface disturbance that would outgas my CO2.

A 20 gallon for a sump is a nice size to work with, have you thought of adding a refugium? As for the stand, using dado joints would help hold the weight better, but a good amount of the stand plans I have seen here are designed to be overkill for the amount of weight they hold. Also, here is a link that may be helpful since it covers the whole sump setup pretty well. http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/faq.php?faq=sump_articles
 
#16 ·
Oh man, you just threw another gurgle elimination device at me lol. Looks like I still have more research to do lol. this one looks complicated too.

I think I'll just overengineer and avoid the dado joints which seem like they will take more time to do compared to just slapping on extra vertical support.

Is a refugium necessary on a planted tank though? I think I read something in a thread about if you have a super high light in the sump or an HOB, the algae will grow there and not in the main tank. not sure if it was definitively proven though
 
#17 ·
The dadoes really take but a few minutes to cut. Even with a circ saw. Done right they not only look better but cut down on weight and wood. It's a simple repetitive cut. I make the kerfs 1/4" apart hamer the waste out clean up the bottom with a sharp chisel. If you have a router it's even faster.
 
#18 ·
Graphic the three offset baffles are usually just a bubble trap in sumps that have a protein skimmer. You can probably better utilize that space with just a single initial baffle then make a compartment for biomedia or whatever you want to run in it. I keep my return pump in a very small baffled section and use the rest for other things. Has anyone on here every done a freshwater refugium with a reverse light cycle?
anyone? anyone?
 
#21 ·
Graphic the three offset baffles are usually just a bubble trap in sumps that have a protein skimmer. You can probably better utilize that space with just a single initial baffle then make a compartment for biomedia or whatever you want to run in it. I keep my return pump in a very small baffled section and use the rest for other things.
I figured with the 3 baffles, that will force the water to go through the foam/whatever media. If I just had a big open area, I'd have to stuff the sump full with media to account for the variations in water level wouldn't I?
I think I saw a thread where someone did the reverse light cycle but everyone was wondering why lol. I think it can work, but I dont want to buy another light and I'm planning on a easy maintenance/ minimal trim tank ;) I'll use frogbit to outcompete the algae if I have to. I did want to try to put on a hob breeder box to attempt to grow blackworms. If it works out well, I could consider trying to do the same in the middle part of the sump and get rid of the breeder box although the main display will probably have rcs for (occasional) live food.

I dont think I mentioned it, but I want the tank to have around 17 dwarf chain loaches and 25 rummy nose tetras and 6 otos.
 
#26 ·
1.5" is overkill for 400 gph. To give you the scale of how overkill it is, I have a Herbie drain on a system that's pushing about 3,000 gph, and it's 1.5". And the valve is maybe 30% shut!

On a full siphon, you don't really want that much overkill - it means you'll be running with the adjustment valve almost all the way closed, which can make the system difficult to manage. If I wanted a Herbie that can handle 400 gph, I'd probably drill for 1" bulkheads but use bushings to bring the actual plumbing down to 3/4".

Return sizing really depends on the pump you choose. At 400gph, you don't have to go crazy, unless you've bought a way-undersized pump. I'd be totally happy with 3/4" return plumbing for that kind of flow in most cases, or even smaller.

I also want to know if an internal overflow box is necessary. It doesn't seem to serve a purpose to me. Would someone please educate me on this?
Sorry, in what context? If you drill the bottom or side of the tank, you would typically then build an "internal" box around the holes and put the standpipes in it. In that arrangement, an internal box is definitely part of the design. If you're talking about a hang-on overflow, then the internal box is what sets the water level at a point higher than the entrance to the siphon tubes, so it needs to be there (to keep them from sucking air and breaking siphon).

If you're talking about drilling the back or side and then building an external box around the holes on the outside of the tank, and then drilling THAT box to put the standpipes in it, you still (probably) need an internal box to set the water height relative to the holes.

The only situation I can think of where you would not need an internal box would be if you notched the side or back panel of the aquarium and built an external box, at which point the water level in the tank is set by the notch - and you don't need the internal box.
 
#27 ·
If I wanted a Herbie that can handle 400 gph, I'd probably drill for 1" bulkheads but use bushings to bring the actual plumbing down to 3/4".

-----
Sorry, in what context? If you drill the bottom or side of the tank, you would typically then build an "internal" box around the holes and put the standpipes in it. In that arrangement, an internal box is definitely part of the design. If you're talking about a hang-on overflow, then the internal box is what sets the water level at a point higher than the entrance to the siphon tubes, so it needs to be there (to keep them from sucking air and breaking siphon)
Oh yes, I see how 1.5 is overkill for the siphon drain. Would you recommend a 1inch drain for the emergency as well?

Since this is my first time, do you happen to know of a really detailed guide on how to do plumbing? ie, which connector needs a slip and which needs a screw fitting, which ones have to be glued together, details like that? the closest I could find was a picture from beananimal.

The reason I asked if I needed an internal overflow box was because the herbie guide I saw said to put the siphon drain at least 6 inches below the emergency drain and the only box I found had a height of 5 inches from bulk reef supply. I figured if I just drilled 2 holes and attached pvc directly, I could achieve that.
 
#28 ·
Bulkheads - your choice slip vs. threaded. I like slip on the inside and threaded on the outside. Inside the box - use slip fittings and don't glue. None of these joints need to be 100% watertight, and doing it this way means you can pull it apart easily.

Outside the tank - it's really personal preference and will depend on what you want to use to get the water to the sump. You could thread/glue a nipple on and just use soft vinyl hose or corrugated hose. Or you could hard-plumb with PVC. Or use flex PVC. Whatever you choose, just be sure you're installing it appropriately for the given material.

You don't need 6 inches between the two drains - you really only need enough to keep the bottom drain submerged (not sucking air) while the top drain is still JUST above the water level. It's probably more like 2 inches in most setups (Assuming the siphon drain is a downward facing opening, i.e. an elbow pointing down). The extra height is nice because it gives you more wiggle room when adjusting the siphon valve but it is not a requirement.

The emergency should always be at least as big as the siphon - if the emergency is smaller, it might not be able to handle the full flow if the siphon gets plugged.

If you want to use a smaller box, it's typical to put the bulkheads in the side/back of the tank and build a small box around them. Then, you use a downturned elbow on the full siphon (so the opening is down near the bottom of the box) and an upturned elbow on the emergency (so the opening is up near the surface).
 
#30 ·
You don't need 6 inches between the two drains - you really only need enough to keep the bottom drain submerged (not sucking air) while the top drain is still JUST above the water level. It's probably more like 2 inches in most setups (Assuming the siphon drain is a downward facing opening, i.e. an elbow pointing down). The extra height is nice because it gives you more wiggle room when adjusting the siphon valve but it is not a requirement.

The emergency should always be at least as big as the siphon - if the emergency is smaller, it might not be able to handle the full flow if the siphon gets plugged.
If the siphon drain is pointed downward, wouldn't that increase the risk of getting air in the upside down U part? Could I have the siphon intake pointed 90 degrees to the side?

I am tempted to put in a 1.5in for the return. It seems like it would fit in a 6x4x5 inch internal overflow box. Are there any unforeseen space issues I would run into? this is the box I was looking at but it seems all the places I look at use the same dimensions. http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/sumps.../aquarium-overflow-1200-gph-overflow-box.html
 
#33 ·
I was in the same boat last fall; 40b with an internal box feeding through the glass to an external box housing the standpipes. I used 1" pipes for everything and here's what I learned.

1" for the full siphon is way overkill for a 40besq flowrates. Since the valve is mostly closed, any debris or a snail will cause the system to need attention. I would try a 1/2" siphon.

If you don't have an auto top off, the level of water in the sump will change due to evaporation. That level change is the "pump head" and affects the flowrate considerably. I don't think the 1" mixed flow pipe I have really offers enough wiggle room to stay silent with the changing flowrate. The next one of these I do will have a larger mixed flow pipe, or maybe two mixed flow pipes.

1" is easily enough for the emergency pipe on a 40b. 3/4" would probably be ok too.

You will need some sort of pre filter on your inlet weir unless you want fish to end up in your sump. I ended up using some very porous/open fluval filter foam stuffed in my internal box. (Keep in mind that with a nearly closed siphon valve, the fish wont make it to the sump... :mad: )

Another mistake I made was to make my internal weir too large. The larger it is, the thinner the flow over it which means less chance of pulling suspended debris out of the water column. 6-7" is probably plenty for a 40b.

hope this helped.
Mike
 
#36 ·
sorry, I used the three pipe bean type setup. 1 pipe for full siphon, 1 pipe for mixed flow, and 1 pipe for emergencies.

The 1" mixed flow works for me, but its not always silent. I have to tweak the siphon valve a couple of times a week to keep it quiet.

I generally think using the same size pipe for all three is not the way to go.
 
#37 ·
Another way to solve that problem would be to add an ATO to the system to keep the water level in the sump consistent (or just manually top off on a regular basis). The ATO could be as simple as a 5g bucket, a short length of hose, and a mechanical float valve. Fill the bucket once a week, and it keeps the sump level consistent.

If the siphon drain is pointed downward, wouldn't that increase the risk of getting air in the upside down U part? Could I have the siphon intake pointed 90 degrees to the side?
Just to make sure we're on the same page, I stole this image from a thread on reefcentral:



This is how you'd arrange the plumbing for a Herbie through the back or side, then you'd put the overflow box around it. The smaller pipe pointed down is the main siphon, the larger pipe is the emergency. The siphon needs to be pointed down to reduce the chance that it can suck air from the surface. If you don't do this, it needs to be WAY WAY below the water level to maintain a full siphon (like, 6 - 8" plus) A sideways or upwards pointing pipe naturally needs to be submerged further to keep the siphon due to the differences in flow dynamics around the opening - the downwards-facing pipe essentially spreads the lowered pressure created by the siphon around a larger area.
 
#39 ·
This is how you'd arrange the plumbing for a Herbie through the back or side, then you'd put the overflow box around it. The smaller pipe pointed down is the main siphon, the larger pipe is the emergency. The siphon needs to be pointed down to reduce the chance that it can suck air from the surface. If you don't do this, it needs to be WAY WAY below the water level to maintain a full siphon (like, 6 - 8" plus) A sideways or upwards pointing pipe naturally needs to be submerged further to keep the siphon due to the differences in flow dynamics around the opening - the downwards-facing pipe essentially spreads the lowered pressure created by the siphon around a larger area.
Yup, that pic is the way I imagined it. My question still stands though. lets say I turn off the pump for maintenance or there was a power outage, wouldn't the upside down siphon tube lose the siphon and stop draining water when the power comes back?

I did an estimated mockup and feel like the 6in long overflow box would be really tight as you are not supposed to drill 2 holes too close to each other. (I think I read you are not supposed to drill 2 holes right next to each other and its best to leave one diameter's width between them?)
BRS has the entire diameter including the nut of a 1" abs bulkhead as 2.67" and 3/4" bulkhead as 2.04". lets say I used these 2 sizes for return.. that puts me at around 5" width total already which means I shouldn't get the internal overflow box that is 6" as I'm sure that is measured from the outside of the box and not the internal dimensions. I'd have to size up to the next size which is 12" wide and is rated for 1800gph lol ugh. If I had to do a 12" wide overflow box, I may as well just use the bean animal method + perhaps block up some of the teeth of the overflow box.

For the actual bulkhead itself, I assume the slip x thread combination is the one I want? It says the slip is on the flange/head side. Does that mean inside the aquarium?

And thought I should mention that I really appreciate all the patience and advice! Thanks!
 
#44 ·
The speed/ease at which the siphon will start will be affected by many things - diameter of the pipe, flow rate, head (height), backpressure caused by the exit in the sump being submerged, etc. It's somewhat complicated but the nice thing is you can just change/adjust things until it works, you don't really have to figure it all out ahead of time.

I wouldn't bother looking for specific elbows. Just get whatever you have available that will fit. "Smooth" elbows might mean less restriction but since you're purposefully building much larger than required and then valving back, starting out with half a percent more restriction isn't going to be an issue.

Plumbing from the bulkhead down - smoother/more direct is better, mostly from an ease-of-starting perspective for the siphon. You usually won't have issues unless it's a really silly layout. 45's are fine to change where the plumbing goes. What you don't want are sections that are horizontal or sloped "upwards" as that makes it less likely that the air will evacuate quick enough for the siphon to start well.

Threaded unions are great, especially around things you KNOW you will need to fiddle with (i.e. a return pump if it's connected directly to rigid plumbing).
 
#45 ·
yea, definitely will be fiddling for a long time lol! anyway, this really helped thanks! I'll start ordering drill bits and bulkheads soon.

on an unrelated note, I think my shrimp would prefer if if I moved the co2 to another tank so if I wanted to use a needlewheel pump to diffuse co2 in my sump (not part of the return line to main tank), how many gph should I be shooting for? my current atomizer mists like crazy at a low bubble count and i'm sure will be unsuitable for the 40g.
 
#46 ·
A note from someone with a 'coast-to-coast' (full tank width) overflow and beananimal (herbie w. two down-turned drains) drain system...long weir is great, but shrimp/stupid or curious fish are quickly sucked over and into the sump.

So plan for a holding area, or do something to prevent them from getting sucked over. I haven't gotten around to it yet, but I've read that gutter guard mesh is the best option. (now that I've written this...going to HD tonight to pick some up...)
 
#48 ·
So plan for a holding area, or do something to prevent them from getting sucked over. I haven't gotten around to it yet, but I've read that gutter guard mesh is the best option. (now that I've written this...going to HD tonight to pick some up...)
most definitely, I have tons of gutter guard mesh from HD in the attic. I use it now to hold down moss.

while herbie's have great advantages. it looks like im the only person who reccommends a singular drain with the correct sized piping.
what would you suggest is a properly sized single drain for around 400 gph? my issue is all commercial boxes are not big enough for anything over 1 inch.
 
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