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-   -   my GBRs have been dying. not sure why... (http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=181284)

pandamonium 06-26-2012 04:55 AM

my GBRs have been dying. not sure why...
 
hey everyone,

so over the past 1 week i have lost 3 of my 6 GBRs. i am battling ich in my tank but the ich is pretty much all gone. im keeping the tank high in terms of temperature to make sure. i also used coppersafe to kill it as i read it was milder.
however, my rams began dying. there were no visible ich marks on them and its always a mystery. this morning i left for work and my tank parameters were not disturbed (temp and such) and i returned at 9pm and one more had died.
my water parameters are as follows. all tests were with API FW master kit
ammonia and nitrite: 0ppm tested an hour ago
nitrate: tested yesterday about 5-10ppm
pH: 7.2-7.4 (rams were raised locally so this has never been a problem for them. for the previous 5 weeks my tank has been running, they have been perfectly fine and happy. they even spawned once!)
GH: 6dGH
KH: 3dKH

i want to say that there was violence involved as i know the cichlids get territorial. i did see one flaring to another yesterday and the other flaring back then some nipping. but the one that died today was not one of those 2. today one of the larger ones was dead. besides this, they were perfectly fine. i dont know why now, they are dropping like this. its pretty upsetting.

any ideas?

Trickerie 06-26-2012 06:10 AM

Ram's are pretty delicate fish, stress really affects them. The only thing I can think of is that there was a secondary infection other than ich that was affecting them. Perhaps an internal bacterial infection? Or, perhaps what you diagnosed as ich was in fact something else entirely. Did you notice any difference in activity or feeding? Lethargic movement, hanging in places uncharacteristically (top for rams), or not eating are all signs that something is off.

pandamonium 06-26-2012 07:22 AM

my rams were usually browsing the floor and hanging out in the back of my tank where i have it pretty heavily planted with pennywort. they would only come to the surface to feed as the food takes a while to fall down. they did this since i got them. ever since the number of dither fish went down the rams are in hiding more which i would expect. what i dont understand is how they seem to die even though they were fine a couple minutes before hand. they swim around the back and sometimes peek out, mostly when im not in the room (they swim back quickly if i come in and make too much noise). feeding hasnt been irregular, and neither has their general actions. im fairly sure i had ich, as it was white spots over the fish's body. it could be a bacterial infection maybe though. im not sure what that would look like/what its caused from. now that you got me on this bacterial infection, i hope it does not spread.

Aquaticfan 06-26-2012 08:09 AM

GBR's are VERY easily hit by ich. Its one of their biggest issues. They do stress easy. But the biggest issue is this with ich and them.. It can hide in their gills and cause issues in there for them to breath. This is how Ich really kills anyhow. Seen it happen more then one time. Wont see any Ich left on the fish. Its where you cant see them. The gills.

pandamonium 06-26-2012 08:30 AM

i really hit the bad luck. in my tank all my fish are highly susceptible to ich >< if the ich remains in their gills, will they show any outward signs of it?

nalu86 06-26-2012 08:43 AM

As said before, delicate fish. Also Ich...

40 breeder is to small for 6 rams. I keep max 2 pair in a 55 -75 and 3 in a 125.
If you add more they will bug each other to much and fish will overstress can lead to illness --> dead.

I also learned it the hard way.

up your temp to 87, add 1teaspoon of salt per gallon. airate your water.

pandamonium 06-26-2012 08:47 AM

yeah i am learning the hard way now. i got them locally and the guy sold me 6 as a deal. i figured i would try to handle it. i guess as they grow older, they get more territorial. now i have 3. unsure of genders at the moment but im going to get the tank settled and then add in all the other fish after the ich has been dealt with, ending with rams to see if any of my 3 will pair.

LB79 06-26-2012 04:53 PM

Rams simply don't tolerate nitrate. They are easily stressed, and stressed fish are a target for any infection, bacterial, fungal, or viral. 'Bad' bacteria, viruses, and funguses are present in all tanks, it's just when the tank's occupants are stressed that the little nuisances make their attack.

JoeGREEEN 06-26-2012 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pandamonium (Post 1917655)
hey everyone,

so over the past 1 week i have lost 3 of my 6 GBRs. i am battling ich in my tank but the ich is pretty much all gone. im keeping the tank high in terms of temperature to make sure. i also used coppersafe to kill it as i read it was milder.
however, my rams began dying. there were no visible ich marks on them and its always a mystery. this morning i left for work and my tank parameters were not disturbed (temp and such) and i returned at 9pm and one more had died.
my water parameters are as follows. all tests were with API FW master kit
ammonia and nitrite: 0ppm tested an hour ago
nitrate: tested yesterday about 5-10ppm
pH: 7.2-7.4 (rams were raised locally so this has never been a problem for them. for the previous 5 weeks my tank has been running, they have been perfectly fine and happy. they even spawned once!)
GH: 6dGH
KH: 3dKH

i want to say that there was violence involved as i know the cichlids get territorial. i did see one flaring to another yesterday and the other flaring back then some nipping. but the one that died today was not one of those 2. today one of the larger ones was dead. besides this, they were perfectly fine. i dont know why now, they are dropping like this. its pretty upsetting.

any ideas?

Panda..

? Isn't this the same tank where you had many hatchetfish that were all dying?

You may have some parasitic issue :( Fish TB? god i hope not.

It seems like allot of different fish are dying. If its not your water params, oxygen/co2 overdose it may be an illness spreading in your tank.

Sorry to sound so negetive, i hope you get it resolved soon

Aquaticfan 06-26-2012 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LB79 (Post 1918057)
Rams simply don't tolerate nitrate.

I don't find this to be true or an issue. I have several different pairs of rams in several tanks. All if them heavily planted, some with co2 all of them dosed Via EI. I run the nitrates roughly up to 60 to 80 ppm before a 70% water change reset weekly. They deal with it just fine. Mine spawn in it and never any issues of stress.

nalu86 06-26-2012 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquaticfan (Post 1918098)
I don't find this to be true or an issue. I have several different pairs of rams in several tanks. All if them heavily planted, some with co2 all of them dosed Via EI. I run the nitrates roughly up to 60 to 80 ppm before a 70% water change reset weekly. They deal with it just fine. Mine spawn in it and never any issues of stress.

True, mine Run over 100ppm and my Rams thrive.

pandamonium 06-26-2012 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LB79 (Post 1918057)
Rams simply don't tolerate nitrate. They are easily stressed, and stressed fish are a target for any infection, bacterial, fungal, or viral. 'Bad' bacteria, viruses, and funguses are present in all tanks, it's just when the tank's occupants are stressed that the little nuisances make their attack.

yeah i dont know how it started but i am guessing they started to become stressed when i removed my platy and put him back in my other tank. i brought him over to help cycle then put him back with the rest of the platies. from that point on, the rams hid a lot more. they still come out to feed and forage. im hoping that the rams once i have more dither fish will feel more comfortable. my nitrate levels are not that high, much lower than other people who dose it for their plants. at most my nitrates are 10-15ppm due to me not changing the water during my ich treatment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeGREEEN (Post 1918078)
Panda..

? Isn't this the same tank where you had many hatchetfish that were all dying?

You may have some parasitic issue :( Fish TB? god i hope not.

It seems like allot of different fish are dying. If its not your water params, oxygen/co2 overdose it may be an illness spreading in your tank.

Sorry to sound so negetive, i hope you get it resolved soon

yeah it is. the hatchetfish i am assuming were store issues/jumping out of the tank. i love my LFS for its prices and especially variety in getting me what i want but its almost a gamble with the fish i get. i have had good luck in the past but the batch of hatchets i bought i guess just couldnt make it. i really hope its not fish TB. so far my catfish are doing well. both of them recovered from the ich very well. they are still ok. my other 3 rams look good today, no deaths last night. i hope it gets resolved too.

and yeah nitrates, mine are not that high. like i said above i think they might be at 15-20 right now but i cannot do anything about that. the last signs of ich disappeared 2 days ago, so im finishing the last bit of treatment to get rid of this nuisance.

Bananariot 06-27-2012 09:01 AM

I've had 2 mated pairs of rams in a 20l before so I doubt its ram aggression esp at that age since they aren't mated yet.

What are all your tank params?
ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate?

It could be a combo of things whuppin your fishes butts.

pandamonium 06-27-2012 09:17 AM

tank parameters as of now are still 0 ammonia and nitrite. nitrate is probably higher than before (maybe 10 to 15ppm) due to no water change from ich treatment. from what it seems like above, nitrate and rams are compatible (in a loose sense of the word) and since i checked my water right after the ram died, i dont think it could have been ammonia or nitrite poisoning.

Bananariot 06-27-2012 09:23 AM

Hmmmm.......I'm guessing it's ich doing you in then. I might recommend a large water change to remove some free floating ich. Perhaps one of your hatchets came with ich and all of it went downhill from there. You also happened to get all the fish that startle and stress easy too :X


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