Just getting started . . .

[kaifyre]

Right, so my dad just said I have permission to build a pond in our backyard : )) I've kept aquariums/planted tanks for years now but I've never in my life set up or built a pond. A few questions popped up . . .
I live about an hour away from Las Vegas, NV. The summers here are pretty horrendous, about 110 in the worst parts of the day. Winters are like 28, at the lowest. Is this too much of an extreme to build a pond, or can it still be done? I'm not worried about the winters so much as the summers, but anything living in there has to tolerate that kind of temperature swing.
Also, does the pond need to be shaded a lot, or can I grow lillies to shade the bottom? And what's a good size to start out with? I was thinking like 7x4x3, is that okay?
Thanks!!

--Kai

[Lee]

I built a 4000 gallon pond 3 years ago. It took me 2 years to finish. I gained a lot of experience you could say. If I could do it again first I would make a much smaller above ground pond. 10 times easier to make and no digging! Digging takes a lot longer than you expect. The sides double as a seat and it’s easier to get closer to the water to see. You could make the wall about 18" tall out of brick, be sure to use a liner. For the filtration extend one side about a foot to house your filter and it doubles a seat. 3 foot is too deep and you will have trouble growing plants. Shallower is better. I would go 6x3x18". Also smaller fish are better. The large koi will out grow it and eat all the plants, comets are a much better choice, maybe even some community fish. That’s about 200 gallons total; I would go for a turn over every 2 hours. For filtration you could use an Eheim to filter it, a 2236 or 2215 would work perfect. Again saves time making a filter. Light is free and I do recommend making it out in the open not under trees. The plants will grow better and you won’t have to clean the leaves out of it all the time. Maybe add some fertilizer every once in a while and you’ll have a beautiful water garden!

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/f...intensive.html

[lauraleellbp]

Those are some pretty dramatic extremes. You will definitely need to plan lots of shade during the summer, and probably need to bring your fish inside during the winter. You may need to rig some sort of automatic top-off for the summer to keep up with evaporation and keep the pond cool?

Have you considered a container garden, something cheap and easy to take down and put back up during the right season, like a plastic kiddie swimming pool and/or half a wine barrel? Those might be much more practical in the long run...

[kaifyre]

Yeah, I've got a 500 gallon horse trough that's about 1 1/2 feet deep, and I told dad it would be easier to use it as a pond, but he wants to have one dug in if we're going to make one. Could I maybe dig out a hole for the horse trough and use it as a liner?
And yeah, we're going to plant 3 Queen palms around the side facing the sun, so there will be shade in the summer. I read somewhere that if you make the pond deep enough the fish will hibernate during winter, how deep would that have to be? Or would they still croak? (We own horses and have our own tractor, so digging won't be a problem!!)
Sorry I'm asking so many questions, but my knowledge of ponds is iffy and I figure jumping into this feetfirst is probably not going to get me anywhere!

--Kai

[Lee]

If you have a tractor why didn’t you say so! But yeah that will work. I would try to negate the temperate extremes by placing it next to, not under a tree or building so its gets partial shade during the summer, and a heater during the winter. If you can keep the temp between 40 and 80 you should be fine.

[Spiritwind]

If your conditions are same as Las Vegas, I think you will need a chiller. I was in LV for a few years and I wanted to do the same thing, but I decided against it, there is too much temperature difference. It can be nearly 100 degrees at midnight, shade cant even help with that. If anything for me now I would just make fountains with nothing, plants are pretty hard to do already, fish though I think would take much too much effort.

Of course unless there is a fish that can survive that swing in temperature.

[Spiritwind]

Oh and not sure about the evaporation thing, cause it will also evaporate really fast. Might cause a problem with dissolved solids if you just keep topping off. Might have to either RO/DI water or more water changes if there is hard water.

[Lee]

Your water temperature will rarely be the same as the air temperature. It's a weighted average of it actually. So if you have a high of 100 and a low of 70 then the water will be more like 85. Water changes should take care of any evaporated solids.

[Spiritwind]

It will stay above 90 constantly for a week though, I think that will change the water temperature. The high is like 110 in the day and 90 at night.

[BiscuitSlayer]

Originally Posted by Lee

Your water temperature will rarely be the same as the air temperature. It's a weighted average of it actually. So if you have a high of 100 and a low of 70 then the water will be more like 85. Water changes should take care of any evaporated solids.

That might be the case, but he said that he had nights around 100 degrees which I can completely relate to as I have been out there in the summer. The days would probably be upto 110 or maybe even a little more. That would leave you with an average of 105 which is pretty hot for most fish to survive in. There would definately need to be some type of oxygen system to keep the water oxygenated, or a cooling system to help retain oxygen.

Fish in lakes go deeper in the summer months to seek refuge from lower oxygen levels and warmer water. That would be hard to accomplish in something as shallow as 18 inches.

In any event, I would love to see how this plays out.

[Lee]

It's hard to say without actually doing it and taking the temperature. The ground will help insulate it and water can take several days to weeks to acclimate to air temperature.

[lauraleellbp]

You might want to run all this through Birdman; he's a pond specialist and builds them out in Arizona, so should be familiar with these issues...

EDIT: Oops Oregon- not sure where I got Arizona?

[Birdman]

Ponds are successfully built all over extreme temp. regions like yours. 1st question is is this going to be a watergarden with lots of plants and a few fish or is this going to be a Koi pond.
In any event, make the pond as deep as you can. My watergarden is 4' deep, my Koi pond is 7' deep. The added depth will do 1 things, make the temp. fluctuations less and prevent herons and raccoons from catching fish. On smaller ponds I make the sides go ac close to straight down as possible for 3 feet then slope the bottom to 4 feet at the bottom drain.

Bottom Drain? This is a domed water inlet that will suck and sweep your bottom clean, collecting heavier than water solids. This bottom drain then gravity flows to some kind of large buried settlement chamber where the heavier than water solids have enough dwell time to settle out. From there the water gravity flows to some kind of bio filter. Lots of choices here, but you can make several different kinds out of 55 gal. poly barrels if your handy. Then the water goes to your 1st pump, usually 2500 to 3500 gph depending on what size BD your using. The water then is usually pumped to under water returns, what we call TPR's. These tprs will help to sweep the bottom clean.

Notice I'm trying to keep a clean bottom, that means NO ROCKS. Rocks look pretty, but will kill your pond. Over time they will collect waste, which will build up, go an-aerobic, produce hydrogen sulfide gas and kill everything.

We also use a skimmer circuit. This skims off collected floating things like dust and leaves. It also skims off DOCs, with out a skimmer your pond will end up with a floating layer of DOCs or scum and choke off the pond from absorbing oxygen ans de gassing nitrogen and CO2.

Depending on the size of your pond you would run another 2500 to 5500 gph pump from the skimmer to some kind of mech/fines filtration, then usually to a waterfall. My favorite mech/fine filters are sand/gravel filters. You can build them once again from 55 gal barrels. I can show you how, and I also sell kits for these.

Don't use submersible pumps. They will add heat to your water, cost 4 times as much to run as centrifugal pumps, can short out and electrocute the fish.

Yes your pond will want some shade, and a UV to prevent green water.

I carry a full line of the best American made pumps, BDs, skimmers, filters, what ever you need. I can match anyones prices out there. You can look at my web site at
www.highdesertkoi.com

But PLEASE, before you dig, you or anyone else, please call me, 541-408-3317 so I can help you design a good workable pond. Don't feel obligated to buy anything. Half of my buss. is correcting other installers and owners mistakes. And it really hurts to see failures form incompetence or lack of knowledge. Let me help you do it right the 1st time.

[kaifyre]

Thanks Steve, I think I'll give you a call sometime in the near future . . . I have a debate tournament this weekend but next week maybe . . . ?
I was planning on having a pretty deep pond, as we live in a rural area and have a lot of critters running around that would enjoy a tasty fish treat! Also, I'm not going to be taking the fish inside during the winter, so they need to be able to get deep to escape the ice.
In answer to your question, I'm probably thinking like more of a water garden-ish thing, but I do want fish in there! Koi are too expensive anyway, but maybe shubunkins or comets? I might even catch some local fish and put in there, I'm not picky about those. I just want something with fish and plants that will survive out here, other than that I'm completely open to ideas . . . I definately don't want to spend like 50 bucks on a fish that gets eaten or dies during the winter, so all my livestock are gonna be pretty cheap.
I agree on using a chiller, but will I have to use one if the pond is deep enough? We're also planting 3 Queen palms on the side facing the sun, so there will be shade for a good part of the day. I was thinking lillies might also help shade the pond, would that work?
Thanks for all your help, guys!

--Kai

[Birdman]

Originally Posted by kaifyre

I agree on using a chiller, but will I have to use one if the pond is deep enough?
--Kai

I don't think so. I know several people in Vagas with ponds and they are not using chillers.