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Topic Review (Newest First)
04-01-2013 07:52 AM
hunterlook Stef! I completely missed this thread somehow but that's a gorgeous betta and I hope the fry raising is looking better for you. I'm subscribed!
04-01-2013 07:04 AM
auban shoot, i lost every single fry four times in a row before i found out i had a dragon fly larvae...

sometimes things happen. its not easy to care for an animal that evolved with a few hundred thousand times more space than we are able to give them in a house.

on a side note, i find that if the water is clean and the fry are dying, they are usually starving.
03-26-2013 09:47 PM
@marko@
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkCobra View Post
No worries. Temporary and she's already bouncing back. I'm still replying at this point only because I'm better with technical details.



About two gallons.



Yes, there's always a trace, as expected since there is no real biofiltration. Both this and the small size seem odd to me as well, given my general fishkeeping experience, and even odder that it seems to be common advice for raising betta fry. But since it's Stef's project, she always gets final say on which methods to try. I only advise, experience is the best teacher and can't be told to sleep on the couch.



Hmm, the only biomedia I could currently remove intact from other tanks is plastic scrubbers. Though I'm thinking this might present a trap hazard to fry. I have some old ceramic biomedia and will get it into filters today for future use, and see if there's something else that could be improvised/adapted more immediately. Maybe I can just cut a chunk off of an existing sponge, LOL.



Did the same once with Glofish fry. Wasn't seriously expecting it to happen, as they're supposed to be sterile, and so didn't do anything special other than what you described. Still ended up with about 50 making it to maturity.

Will take the other advice and the link, discuss it with Stef, and figure out a plan. She'll post any changes made.

Thanks Marko!
this is the most common method of tank setup in the USA, and the one i use: http://bettysplendens.com/articles/p...?articleid=722

cutting off a bit of sponge filter would work. maybe place it next to an airstone set on low to juryrig a sponge filter?

actually glo fish spawning is pretty common. i didnt even know they were supposed to be sterile. many people get them to mate with ordinary zebra danios and make all kinds of weird hybrids (not technically hybrids, as they are the same sp, just one was had a recombinant gene put in).
03-26-2013 08:53 PM
DarkCobra
Quote:
Originally Posted by @marko@ View Post
sorry to hear she is discouraged.
No worries. Temporary and she's already bouncing back. I'm still replying at this point only because I'm better with technical details.

Quote:
Originally Posted by @marko@ View Post
how much water can the shoebox hold?
About two gallons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by @marko@ View Post
so there is sometimes NH3 above 0ppm? thats likely your problem.
Yes, there's always a trace, as expected since there is no real biofiltration. Both this and the small size seem odd to me as well, given my general fishkeeping experience, and even odder that it seems to be common advice for raising betta fry. But since it's Stef's project, she always gets final say on which methods to try. I only advise, experience is the best teacher and can't be told to sleep on the couch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by @marko@ View Post
do you have other tanks? take a small handful of biomedia from them and put it in with the fry.
Hmm, the only biomedia I could currently remove intact from other tanks is plastic scrubbers. Though I'm thinking this might present a trap hazard to fry. I have some old ceramic biomedia and will get it into filters today for future use, and see if there's something else that could be improvised/adapted more immediately. Maybe I can just cut a chunk off of an existing sponge, LOL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by @marko@ View Post
ive never spawned without any filtration. hell once i even spawned with a HOB filter on low with a current killer and sponge over the intake (it worked too).
Did the same once with Glofish fry. Wasn't seriously expecting it to happen, as they're supposed to be sterile, and so didn't do anything special other than what you described. Still ended up with about 50 making it to maturity.

Will take the other advice and the link, discuss it with Stef, and figure out a plan. She'll post any changes made.

Thanks Marko!
03-26-2013 07:41 PM
@marko@ sorry to hear she is discouraged.
there are die-off points where some fry may fail to develop properly and die, but itll be a handful (if any) over 48 hrs, and then no deaths after that. some new every day, means something is hurting them.
but thats nature. in nature, out of all the spawns a betta in a stable population has, only 2 fry (on average) would survive to reproduce. so tell her not to feel too bad.

how much water can the shoebox hold? ive heard of spawns in such containers, but i prefer 10 or 20 gallon tanks filled partway, then filled up over the first 2 weeks. more water is better than less. but different methods can achieve similar results.

so there is sometimes NH3 above 0ppm? thats likely your problem.
the tank needs to be cycled. do you have other tanks? take a small handful of biomedia from them and put it in with the fry.
ive never spawned without any filtration. hell once i even spawned with a HOB filter on low with a current killer and sponge over the intake (it worked too). i like sponge filters though. set it on 1-3 bps during the spawn and first week, then start bumping it up. my mustard gas fry are 25 days old, and their sponge filter is on at 75% strength. im also changing a gallon a day each day this week, and will do 5 gal a day next week, the week after ill be doing 100% (10gal) WCs daily. clean water is the best thing there is for em. just be sure its the same temp and params.

doesnt matter how you heat the water. if its stable at 84, temp is not the problem.

at 2.5 weeks, i say start up those BBS asap. as i said, i know where she is in regard to the trepidation in doing it. but it is surprisingly easy. the little shrimp can hatch in just about any mixture. then strain some through a coffee filter, rinse with tap, and swish em into the tank.

here is a great resource on betta breeding, helped me out a lot when i was getting started: http://bettysplendens.com/articles/c....imp?catid=856
03-26-2013 06:55 PM
DarkCobra Hey Marko,

Stef's a bit discouraged after reading that the daily losses aren't normal, so for now I'm replying for her. Bettas and breeding are her hobby, not mine, but I've been involved in enough to give details.

The first picture of fry is not in their normal container, and was just used for a clearer photo.

The other two show their normal container, a plastic shoebox. There is no sponge filter or biomedia. She read for weeks prior to doing this, and it seems everyone suggests very different ways things absolutely should be done. Seems the more you read the more confusing it gets. But most suggested even a sponge filter would be unsafe for newborn fry, so she went with what appeared to be the consensus. They're now about 2.5 weeks old, and will be moved to a larger tank shortly.

Ammonia tests are done daily, as are removal of wastes and old water using a turkey baster, and addition of aged water via a slow drip system. She steps up the amount as needed based on the test result.

The heater is a heating pad underneath the shoebox, set to low. Not fully temperature controlled, as there is no thermostat in the water. But it was covered with layers of fabric until it successfully achieved a stable 84F for a full day prior to breeding, and it seems to be holding quite well. We're looking at a possible upgrade to heat film and a closed-loop temperature controller for future spawns.

We do have BBS cysts on hand. Stef has been hoping to put off hatching them as long as possible, as she's never done it before, and would like to keep things as simple as possible. But you may be right that it's time to "cave" and proceed with that. In the past few days, she's also been feeding a mix of Angel's Plus fry starter along with finely crushed Hikari Betta Bio-Gold, which some are now eating, but not all.

Any additional suggestions are welcome.
03-26-2013 04:05 PM
@marko@ daily losses are NOT normal. something is wrong. i dont see a sponge filter... is the tank cycled? if not, thats a huge issue.
also, that tank looks small, how big is it?
and where is the heater? temps should be 82-86F, and very stable.

if you really want to see good growth, and raise large spawns, you need to hatch BBS. i didnt want to do it at first, didnt do it for my first spawn, got [censored][censored][censored][censored]ty results. then i caved, and it was much easier than i thought. takes all of 2 min to make a hatchery. just cut the bottom off a soda bottle from a vending machine or such, stick an airline tubing through the cap, invert and make a base. i have 2 hatcheries going on 1 air pump with a splitter, check valve, and flow valves. dump salt enough to fill the cap, fill the bottle with tap, add eggs (technically they are cysts), wait 36hrs. i use 1 hatch for 3 meals (and feed 3 meals a day), and then restart. this way each hatchery give me food for every other day. and then i feed MW as snacks, along with atisons betta starter, and later daphnia and cut up bloodworms.
works great.
03-26-2013 04:35 AM
Art by Stef* Oh, I've been doing my homework, or rather, the fish have been "doing it"
I've raised guppies and glofish (unexpectedly on the glofish) before, but never bettas, and currently raising my first betta fry. It's a dry (wet) run. I want to see what mistakes and successes I make, learn from them, before breeding my better quality fish.

This is Jazz, the Delta tail, and his mate, Betty Boop the Halfmoon (she's the one sporting red eyeshadow and lipstick):



Their coloration carries the "jumping marble" gene. They switch color weekly, it seems.



I used your method, auban, only in a clear plastic shoebox with a heating pad under it. Put Betty Boop in a betta cup for a day in the shoebox. They did the nasty continuously for 10 hours when I released her, but neither got nasty-very minimal damage.

Here are the fry, they were free swimming March 9th, so they are about 2 1/2 weeks old. Sorry for the crappy pics. Dried leaves are banana from my tree.







There are about over 100, and I dutifully turkey baste the waste daily. Been feeding microworms and just added fine powdered fry/betta food. Finding about 2 dead a day-don't know if this is normal? Haven't posted this until today, because I don't want to jinx them, lol. Being my first betta brood, it's been nerve-wracking, and you might think the eggs came out of me!

-Stef*
03-26-2013 01:48 AM
auban my favorite way to spawn picky bettas is to float the female in a betta bowl or other clear container inside the tank with the male. that give the male the impression that she is in his territory. if she doesnt show signs of submission then pull her out and try again tomorrow. if they both look like they are ready(he is flaring, she has her head down) then they will probably spawn the night or morning after.

i have been able to entice many pairs that wanted nothing to do with each other to spawn by doing this. after a while the teasing just gets too much i guess.
03-25-2013 11:40 PM
Scottyhorse Yay, there's gunna be babies
03-25-2013 10:24 PM
@marko@ a backcross would probably be best, yeah. i would do that first. that way if it is genetic, it will likely show itself in some of the resulting offspring.
if not, you still get pretty fish, standard blue red butterfly HMs, which are a staple of the market.

bettas can reject certain mates, even when both are in condition, and consistently reject a particular fish, showing that they do have some 'tastes'. but its not common. generally if both fish are ready, you get a spawn.
03-25-2013 09:49 PM
Art by Stef*
Quote:
Originally Posted by @marko@ View Post
i like the first female better. she has a better topline, and red in her dorsal, which your male lacks and would make his colors more balanced.
but you can breed to both. breed first to one, then to the other, and then mate from one brood into the other. thats what i plan to do with my mustard gases.
Thanks for the reply! Do you think I should still take a daughter back to the sire?
He's gonna be busy...
Maybe putting the cart before the horse. He might want to do his own choosing, but I was going to go with female number one first go 'round
-Stef*
03-25-2013 08:15 PM
@marko@ i like the first female better. she has a better topline, and red in her dorsal, which your male lacks and would make his colors more balanced.
but you can breed to both. breed first to one, then to the other, and then mate from one brood into the other. thats what i plan to do with my mustard gases.
03-20-2013 11:31 PM
Art by Stef* I never seen it, and I searched the net for any info before posting. I'm new to the halfmoon betta, (owning them) and have fallen for them bad Maybe this is something breeders keep quiet about?
I kinda got used to and like the way his curls "bounce" around the tank like Shirley Temple.

-Stef*
03-20-2013 11:19 PM
aokashi
Unusual Betta Fins?

I had one with the same "deformity" but not mirror image. I wouldn't find it odd if two rays grew back the wrong way....
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