|Topic Review (Newest First)|
|01-08-2013 02:35 AM|
Originally Posted by niko View Post
I'm not saying ditch the midday bulb, but if we can get faster or more compact growth with some ati blue +'s or blue leds and work that in to a moring/dusk cycle why not do it? If we can fine tune how our plants grow by tweaking spectrum its 100% worth it. If that means more compact growth or the ability to induce flowering, that could be really useful to alot to of advanced aquascapers looking for a very specific look for their photos or first timers attempting to grow a dense HC carpet. Maybe we can find a spectrum that causes HC to stay low or spread out faster or causes blyxia to flower all the time, or increases leaf serrations on marshmermaid... Point is that there are so many options out there that let us play with spectrum and intensity like leds such as the radion or sol vega and more traditional technology like t5's that there is just no good reason not too.
We should play with planted tank light sprectum and intensity for the same reason people first climbed mount everest or stuffed pizza crust with cheese... because we can.
|01-08-2013 01:47 AM|
Well, as I promised, I just tried the 14W grow LED array by itself over the tank that already has a 30W LED flood light + a 24W T5HO Giesemann Midday:
Observations of the pearling. Percentages are approximate of course:
All 3 lights - 100%
30W LED + 24W T5HO [Total of 54W]- 95
30W LED - 75
14W LED - 0
24W T5HO - 0
14W LED + 24W T5HO [Total of 38W] - 20
14W LED + 30W LED [Total of 44W]- 100
Ok, remember that the 14W grow light illuminates only two small swords the best (right underneath). There is enough light that spreads over the entire bottom of the tank (18"x22") but I do not know how useful it is. The two small swords stop pearling within 30 seconds of leaving only the 14W LED running. They do not pearl with the 24W T5HO by itself either. The go all out when the 30W LED is used either with the 14W or the 24W or both.
Overall I can only say that it looks like no matter if I use the 24W T5HO or the 14W LED when they are used with the 30W LED the pearling is just fine. The pearling is not fine with the 24W T5HO and the 14W LED although they have all the good wavelengths. Not sure if this means that sheer intensity is indeed more important than spectrum or that the 30W LED blue really works or its intensity is doing the trick.
|01-08-2013 12:11 AM|
I use actinics that produce most of their light in the violet and low ultraviolet ranges. it probably actually stunts the plants growth, as most studies involving UV have indicated, but it also typically induces an increase in red pigments. I like to think of it as a plants version of a tan. most flourescent bulbs produce at least a little UV, but some produce mostly UV.
like I said though, i use them because they make the plants turn different colors. one strong UV source is enough for me to see that affect. I haven't tried my blue LED panels on very many plants yet, ill have to play around more with them to see if I can elicit a similar response in other plants.
|01-07-2013 11:14 PM|
I meant using exotic wavelengths that are not normally used produces really weird coloration. Not like getting the red leaves redder or someting like that. Just very weird colors you don't normally see.
And because the aquascaping hobby apparently is not an enemy to unnatural looks one can use weird colored plants to create some kind of unseen alien scape.
The grow light that I used yesterday indeed created very ugly shadows around the plants - purplish red, very unnatural and tastless looking.
The absorbtion of wavelengths by the water is a funky topic. Someone just told me that Amano believes that intensity is more important than specific wavelengths. One simple example is "white" light. It has all kinds of wavelengths and not all of them matching the photosynthetic curves perfectly. But if I think a white light will grow plants worst that a jacked up LED with all kinds of wavelengths I think I need a shot of reality. There probably will be a difference. But how big? What is really the point of a light engineered to surpass white light by say 5 or 10 or 20%? In another post I said that this all has to do more with one's ego than anything else. LED is cool right now, you know.
|01-07-2013 07:34 PM|
There is tons of information around spectrum of light and how it affects plant growth. it won't be substantially different for aquatics (since many species grow both in and out of water). The big key is the filtering effect of the water in the tank. Some wavelengths penetrate less well than others, so a light tuned for terrestrial growth may not work as well for aquatic, not because its a bad light, but because the water filters out more or less of some required wavelengths.
To add complexity to this different water with different conditions will filter differently due to clarity, tint, tannins etc...
|01-07-2013 06:19 PM|
Originally Posted by niko View Post
|01-07-2013 02:44 PM|
How strong are the actinics that you use compared to the light that is "pretty to the light"? Or maybe you use only actinics? In any case - how strong are then over what size tank?
I ask because 10 years ago I used a single 15W actinic bulb over a 30 gallon tank. It did nothing, absolutely nothing. I am guessing it was too weak.
Also it looks like playing with the light spectrum allows for variations of the leaf colors that we normally would not see. This is a tool really - a way to fine tune colors in an aquascape. Recently I posted about a strange coloration under blue LEDs - part of my Java Moss turned brownish-red. The leaves are not falling apart, so the plant is not rotting. But the color is closer to dark rust than to brown. Under a normal aquarium light (I guess 5000K) the color looks absolutely unique - like a Java Moss the color of a brown crypt. If the moss is indeed not dead but changed colors so radically this would indeed mean that one can use a strong blue light (or specific wavelengths) to play with the plant colors.
|01-07-2013 12:40 PM|
bacopa caroliniana turns this color:
|01-07-2013 08:14 AM|
|Bluek24a4||Its funny you say that auban, because I was just thinking about what would happen if I used an actinic bulb along with one of the pink plant bulbs.|
|01-07-2013 07:28 AM|
funny... i have been squeezing blue lights into my tanks for years. lately, i am using actinics because they cause the plants to produce more red pigments. LEDs will not cause this, unless they produce UV. i do have some blue grow panel LEDs that i have tested and noticed some incredible growth rates, but the plants didnt show the deep reds that i like so i switched back to actinics.
i usually meet with ridicule when i mention this though, so i normally just keep it to myself...
|01-07-2013 06:21 AM|
Besides some experiments with the blue part of the spectrum we also need some more understanding of how the light intensity works versus the spectrum. I say that because recently I stumbled on a bit of a strange situation:
I'm running a 30W 10,000K LED together with one 24W 6000K Giesemann Midday T5HO bulb. This combination caused the plants to pearl within minutes after setting up both lights for the very first time. This is the LED:
Now check this out:
- LED+T5HO are on: Pearling = 100%
- Only T5HO: Pearling = 0
- Only LED: Pearling = 75%
Why isn't the pearling staying at 25% with the T5HO only? Looks like there is a beneficial interaction between the "strong arm" light and the "good spectrum" light. Or maybe the blue-er light is indeed better for the photosynthesis. Unfortunatelly I do not know the wavelengths of the 30W LED and I am comparing a single element LED with a 24" long fluoresent bulb. Of course the LED will hit the plants with more light in one spot. Anyway - the LED has got to have a lot of blue because without the 6000K bulb the colors in the tank are very washed and the backs of the neon tetras glow very strong blue.
Today I added a third light to the above combo - a 14W red and blue light (has 272 leds: 204 Red (615-655nm) + 68 Blue (455-485nm)):
I wanted to see if that weird (mainly red) color grow light will do something interesting to the aquatic plants. I can say for sure that it did speed up the photosynthesis - I turned the grow light on and off and counted the release rate of a single Oxygen bubble that came out of one of the plants. With the grow light the bubble came out every 3 seconds. As soon as I turned the light off it slowed down to 5 and eventually 7 seconds. I repeated that a few times and there was a definite connection. Very scientific, I know, but it did show that the grow light with its mostly red LEDs sped up the photosynthesis. And from what I see now the range 615-655 nm that my grow light provides may not be the best (some graphs show Chlorophyl A absorbing best at about 680 nm):
Also, another observation - after 4 hours of exposure to that light I saw a 1/2 inch flower stem with buds forming showing up on the sword that was right under the light. I don't know if the grow light had something to do with that but the stem was not there when I installed the grow light.
I should have experimented with the grow light only by turning off the other 2 lights. I will do that tomorrow. That's a light that gets pretty close to both areas of interest for the photosynthesis. I'm interested to see if there will be pearling despite the low intensity. There shouldn't be any - 14 Watts going through 18 inches of water should not work. But read the weird observation about the LED + T5HO pearling above. I experiment again tomorrow.
|01-07-2013 04:12 AM|
Best wavelengths for photosynthesis:
Chlorophyll A: 435 - 665 nm
Chlorophyll B: 490 - 650 nm
I'm interested to hear as well.
As an experiment, Ive ordered a KZ Fiji Purple for its red spectrum. Its the only bulb I can find which would satisfy a plants chlorophyll A spectral needs in red @ at 650nm. The blue end of the spectrum seems to me much easier to find and satisfy.
|01-07-2013 12:11 AM|
Its no secret that blue light is used for vegetative growth in alot of different applications. I really dont understand why there hasnt been more discussion and experimentation with blue lighting in planted tanks.
I consider myself pretty well versed in aquarium lighting, and I have seen almost no solid information about blue lights for planted tank growth. Marineland has blue diodes in their plant light led, but almost all companys refer to bulbs that appear pink as "plant grow" bulbs. When I get my new light fixture from catalina (hopefully by the end of next week) I plan on running atleast 1 blue t5 in the mix.
I hope some more people with reallife experience using blue bulbs chime in!
|01-06-2013 07:50 PM|
I have to correct myself red has more to do with blooming, blue has more to do with growth if i remember right
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|01-06-2013 07:13 PM|
after about 9 days of growing.
it started from about 5 leaves of hydrocotyl.
Running 6w 10k and 10w blue
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