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Topic Review (Newest First)
12-03-2012 01:31 PM
BruceF Nice to see you are following this up. Keeping track of what you are doing is the real important part.
12-03-2012 03:16 AM
zzrguy I'm going to add the phos-zord next week to clear out any sililcate left in the tank. Then I'll start dosing again.
12-03-2012 03:02 AM
zzrguy Its been about a week and the diatom seem to have lessened.
12-01-2012 12:34 AM
rocketdude1234 I don't want to be mean, but for the average person, the articles and quotes may be a bit misleading. Firstly, how many average hobbyists will want to read something speaking of molar weights and attempt to convert them to something they understand? Secondly, your quoting of them seems to imply a causal link that is true and not one that is only true in those particular instances.


“There were strong positive correlations between planktonic chlorophylls and total phosphorus and total nitrogen……….”
http://lakewatch.ifas.ufl.edu/LWTEAM...macrophyte.pdf

If I read this article correctly, this one seems to indicate that up until about 15mg/m^3 phosphorus, macrophytes and intermediates are more common than algaes. If my math is correct, this is about 12ppm phosphorus.



All diatoms examined increasing cell division rate with
increasing phosphorous concentration in the medium.
Diatoms, however, were not able to dominate when
phosphate was deficient, although silicate and nitrate were
in excess.

http://www.ijsr.in/upload/228151688Chapter%2021.pdf[/QUOTE]


Again, if my math serves me correct, the lowest concentrations of k2hpo4 in this experiment were around 1.74ppm. The higher concentrations (that actually started to lower cell numbers after 8 days) only went up to about 12ppm (interesting concentration when you think about the above study). They report a decrease in population after 8 days with a concentration around 9ppm.

Essentially, this test does not address this persons scenario. First and foremost, what is the OP's concentration of phosphorus in their water? How about substrate (surely algae could use that too)? What if they are already under the lowest test limit? What about above?


If my plants are healthy, I don't fight algae (not that I fight it if it shows up). It really does seem to be as simple as that. Just give your plants some sweet sweet love.
11-30-2012 10:12 PM
fplata OP. I dose high amounts of po4 and I have 0.0 algae, if you stop dosing po4 for a week it's not going to kill your tank so feel free to try it. On the flip side I was able to cure GSA by drastically increasing my PO4. I have followed Toms advice for a long while and I have very healthy tanks... You do what ever you think makes since to you, but when you get a minute take a look at Tom's aquariums and the plant growth and health he achives, you will soon agree that he is doing something very right.
11-30-2012 07:55 PM
BruceF I don’t have a problem with limiting growth. The fact that I limit growth by carbon or by light is just my reality. Slower growth is not really a problem. In fact less pruning is not terribly exhausting!

This is from the tropica link.
“In most cases, however, an aquarium plant fertilizer without nitrogen and phosphorus may safely be added to maintain healthy growth. It is often a much more difficult and expensive task to provide adequate light over the plant aquarium.”

So without complicating this thread more the original question was about limiting P. Is it safe to limit P? Sure it is safe. Will it have any detrimental effects? Not many. Will it help with the diatom problem? Most likely.
I don’t see anything in what has been posted that contradicts that statement.

“There were strong positive correlations between planktonic chlorophylls and
total phosphorus and total nitrogen……….”
http://lakewatch.ifas.ufl.edu/LWTEAM...macrophyte.pdf

All diatoms examined increasing cell division rate with
increasing phosphorous concentration in the medium.
Diatoms, however, were not able to dominate when
phosphate was deficient, although silicate and nitrate were
in excess.

http://www.ijsr.in/upload/228151688Chapter%2021.pdf
11-30-2012 07:28 PM
HD Blazingwolf ^ I WISH i knew on a scienific level half of what you know!!
i mostly just see cause and effect
11-30-2012 06:14 PM
plantbrain
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceF View Post
You use co2. I don't. You cure your algae problems with co2. I don't.
When I increase the amount of Fleet I add I get more algae. It is really that simple.

I don't know what properly means but I grow lots of plants without co2.

edit.
http://link.springer.com/article/10....LI=true#page-1
This article has few large issues when applying it to the hobbyist tank: temperature is a huge factor and they acknowledge it.

Light is also massive difference.
Flow and replacement water is also very different.

But..what is the real smoking gun here in the research that is different from our aquaria???

Plants!!

You need to find tropical or subtropical temps and then add lots of plants to such systems.

Here's one such article and it shows no correlation between P and N and algae vs submersed plant growth:

http://lakewatch.ifas.ufl.edu/LWTEAM...macrophyte.pdf

This addresses the plant absence/presence and temp factors. It also has a very high no# of lake samples!!

you can grow plants without CO2, the question is, at what rate, well, about 10-20X slower and species will compete for CO2 since it is very limiting. If you add a lot of PO4, then the plants will take up the CO2 at MAXIMUM rates since they are not limited as strongly by PO4. This is predicted by Liebig's Law of the Minimum. CO2 Limitations, strong ones anyway, will induce algae since plant growth is very much linked to ample CO2.

A non CO2 tank might have say 3 ppm when the lights 1st come on, then after about 1-2 hours, it'll be almost all gone.

Plants stop growing. a little more CO2 comes in, they get what little is there.
They adapt well to low levels if there's ample time to do so.

This is done at the enzymatic level.

CO2 enriched planted tanks, the plant has much "lazier" and fewer CO2 fixing enzymes. There is ample support in research for this also.

If the non CO2 is limited strong to moderately by PO4, plants still do okay, but they are not growing that fast, but...............they still grow. That is a key point.

If you suddenly remove the PO4 limitation, then what was once a well adapted system enzymatically, now is feast or famine. The plants do poorly in the transition period and you end up with algae.

Bridging ther gap between non CO2 and CO2 is an issue for hobbyists. a good hobby article on this is the Tropica one which the matrix shows how all types of planted tanks still have some growth, even at low light and non CO2 levels, what changes is the rate.

http://www.tropica.com/en/tropica-ab...and-light.aspx


I can promise you, I can grow far more species together, in a CO2 enriched system, than anyone might in a non CO2 system.

Non CO2 enrichment has dependency on well, obviously.............CO2, so anything that drives more growth, gets more and more choked by this constraint. One way to think about this is by considering what moderately limiting CO2 is vs strongly limiting CO2 is and their affects on plants and growth.

If you say cut the rates of growth back by 40% via limiting CO2, this is not too bad, the plant can still use many of the same enzymes and does not need to rework the photosynthetic "factory". If you limiting the growth vai CO2 by say 90%, then the factory and enzymes need to be entirely reworked and the system crashes= algae.

Algae grows when plants do not. Since this hobby is based on growing nice planted tanks, I focus there, then algae is not much of an issue.

Examples of PO4 rich non CO2:

you can guess why there's no/little algae in this tank:



But how about this one?
11-30-2012 05:53 PM
plantbrain
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceF View Post
Iíve been reading about how carbon is the limiting factor for bacteria. The thesis is that with more carbon available the bacteria will out compete the algae, thereby repressing the algae grow.

I see this all the time that adding more Phosphate I get more algae. I donít see that as mythological at all. Of course I am not adding any co2 or any excel. Recently I have been increasing the K and not dosing any P and I seem to be getting rid of more algae.
Reduced carbon, eg, carbohydrates(think like us) are required for bacteria, but there's a ton of that in ANY planted tank, the plants leach ample amounts to supply bacteria, same deal in marine refugiums, this is why having a macro algae refugium is beneficial.

Adding PO4 to my non CO2 or Excel dosed aquariums does not induce algae.
Nor does it in my CO2 Excel enriched tanks.

Diana Walstad also has made the same observations within her own non CO2 enriched aquaria.

Correlation does not imply cause.
Adding PO4 likely just shifts the limiting nutrient from P to CO2.
It does not imply that PO4 is causing algae, if that were the case, then we'd expect to see it for all cases, we do not, so this hypothesis must be rejected as a potential cause. Note, this does not say why you have algae, only what the algae cannot be caused by independent of other factors.
11-30-2012 04:29 PM
BruceF You use co2. I don't. You cure your algae problems with co2. I don't.
When I increase the amount of Fleet I add I get more algae. It is really that simple.

I don't know what properly means but I grow lots of plants without co2.

edit.
http://link.springer.com/article/10....LI=true#page-1
11-30-2012 04:21 PM
HD Blazingwolf
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceF View Post
Iíve been reading about how carbon is the limiting factor for bacteria. The thesis is that with more carbon available the bacteria will out compete the algae, thereby repressing the algae grow.

I see this all the time that adding more Phosphate I get more algae. I donít see that as mythological at all. Of course I am not adding any co2 or any excel. Recently I have been increasing the K and not dosing any P and I seem to be getting rid of more algae.
IF plants get the base nutrients they need, they will require more co2/carbon to grow properly.... this will cause algae.
your looking at it backwads. it takes a long time to get past that

i my tank stays at around 5 ppm phosphates and i grow very little algae. i have some in my overflow in areas i can't ever reach and get cleaned occaisionally. it never grows to anything significant.

i get a spot of diatoms here and there in darker places of my tank. or a tuft of black algae on a piece of wood occaisionally. my co2 tank was out for two weeks and i got some black algae then but with the re introduction of co2, some good maintenance i got it under control and is now all gone...
11-30-2012 01:43 PM
BruceF I’ve been reading about how carbon is the limiting factor for bacteria. The thesis is that with more carbon available the bacteria will out compete the algae, thereby repressing the algae grow.

I see this all the time that adding more Phosphate I get more algae. I don’t see that as mythological at all. Of course I am not adding any co2 or any excel. Recently I have been increasing the K and not dosing any P and I seem to be getting rid of more algae.
11-30-2012 12:45 PM
HD Blazingwolf
Quote:
Originally Posted by sowNreap View Post
I thought brown diatoms were caused by high silicates. ??

When mine didn't appear be getting any better and in fact seemed to be getting worse even after 3-4 months I finally added PhosZorb to my filter. It made a noticeable difference rather quickly. After several weeks they were gone. I don't know if it was just a coincidence they cleared up when I added the PhosZorb or not, but when they started again after changing my substrate I put the bags back in and they started going away. Again could have been coincidence. But to me it seemed to help. I dose extra Phosphate to put back in what is removed.

new substrates usually have lots of silicates. there are a few that don't.. keep that in mind as well.
11-30-2012 07:24 AM
sowNreap I thought brown diatoms were caused by high silicates. ??

When mine didn't appear be getting any better and in fact seemed to be getting worse even after 3-4 months I finally added PhosZorb to my filter. It made a noticeable difference rather quickly. After several weeks they were gone. I don't know if it was just a coincidence they cleared up when I added the PhosZorb or not, but when they started again after changing my substrate I put the bags back in and they started going away. Again could have been coincidence. But to me it seemed to help. I dose extra Phosphate to put back in what is removed.
11-30-2012 04:50 AM
fplata Ultricolaria graminofilia. I have no clue how to spell it
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