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Topic Review (Newest First)
10-24-2012 11:45 AM
CatSoup Back to topic, sorry...
I will be looking into getting some clove oil when it's needed.
10-24-2012 11:39 AM
CatSoup
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVN View Post
That's a really bad question to ask me. I breed and train aggressive hunting dogs for a living and I have to hit them all the time. Sometimes they just refuse to listen, and choose to fight for pack dominance. Sometimes I wish I could toss a couple of them in the freezer. >__>

You gotta be inhumane, you gotta lay the smack down, whistle their ears off, wet them, or you shock them with collars. Whichever tells your dog that you're the dominant one.

I deal with this "humane" bullshizzzz all the time, especially when someone who is uneducated and uninformed about the dog training field tells me that the way I treat my pack is inhumane. No fuqqing shizzznazz, they're not humans, they don't understand as we do. You can't reason with an animal, hell, you can barely even tell them what to do at times.

Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating for the inhumane treatment of animals. I do love my animals, but not to the point where I care about the way they feel as they die. There's a point where they become "just fish." If given the choice, of course any sensible person would choose to end their pet's life painlessly, I am no different, but that doesn't mean that every single animal alive warrants the same treatment. Who is to say that it is wrong to kill your fish with a hammer? Or to freeze it?

Whether clove oil, hammertime, or just tossing it in the freezer. It's just another animal that you are putting down. It's all about morality and perspective, to each their own.
I don't even disagree with this 100%, but...*gag* I think you are trying to rile people up by putting it this way. But who knows? Maybe that is your personality.
Anyway, I'm all for the pack leader method. I think they're smarter than you are giving them credit for in the statement above, but this is the method they rule themselves by. I hate being a disciplinarian, hell, that's why my kids run me ragged, but I know it's needed for a stable environment.
10-24-2012 11:27 AM
CatSoup
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVN View Post
Sometimes when you love something, you have to just hit it with a hammer.
Not as classic as the Dead Milkmen's "If you love somebody, why not set them on fire?" line, but hey, I like it.
10-24-2012 05:08 AM
ShyShrimpDoc As to the use of a gun comment, I am not sure i could hit a fish, at least not any I own (maybe my bigger pleco, but definitely not a threadfin or khuli loach). And I am fairly decent with a gun. Besides digging the bullet out of wherever it winds up and explaining to the police why I fired a gun in my apartment are more than I'd want to go through for a fish. In the lab we overdosed them on MS222. It works good as long as you buffer the pH. Quick and painless (since it blocks neural conduction). Problems with home use: short storage life when mixed, and requires special disposal considerations.
10-10-2012 09:44 PM
DogFish
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainer View Post
Boar spear?
Behind dogs with Knife. In Europe spears were used by Nobility. I'm a humble commoner.
10-10-2012 08:58 PM
HighDesert
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael M View Post
If a fish is sick I quarantine it in a small tank with an air stone, treat it if possible and hope it recovers or let it die quietly in peace.

I don't see how that is cruel.
I do the same thing with ill animals. Unless something is so horribly injured that there is no way it will ever recover and is going to be in agonizing pain for an extended period of time. Like that baby turtle I mentioned in a previous post. I have Buddhist leanings and tend to believe that if something isn't suffering badly, then letting it live out its natural lifespan and finish its life cycle is the way to go. I don't think it's cruel. It's just the pain factor that I can't deal with -- I've been around waaaay too many mortally wounded creatures that are suffering and in such severe pain to be able to just walk away and let them continue hurting for any period of time.
10-10-2012 08:48 PM
Michael M If a fish is sick I quarantine it in a small tank with an air stone, treat it if possible and hope it recovers or let it die quietly in peace.

I don't see how that is cruel.
10-10-2012 08:41 PM
150EH I never liked the idea of putting fish in the freezer, first of all it's where I keep the food I'm going to eat plus I think it takes about the same amount of time to die in the trash can/toilet as it does waiting to freeze to death.

I personally let my fish die in the tank or if you will at home just like I would want to be treated. If the have some decease that I can't treat another night in the tank isn't going to make a difference in the grand scheme of things and if it's contagious the rest of the crew already has it anyway. But I have never had a problem buy letting them die in the tank and I have rarely if ever tossed a live fish in the trash, toilet, or freezer but none of them sound like a better way to go unless you've got fish morphine.
10-10-2012 08:25 PM
Michael M The best part about this thread is the 'garbage disposal' method.

That is the equivalent of tossing your sick family dog into a wood chipper.

Hilarious. I think I'd rather freeze to death, personally.
10-10-2012 08:22 PM
starrlamia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael M View Post
Where is Cesar Millan when you need him???
Don't get me started on that guy.

I'm just eye rolling the above post.

Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk 2
10-10-2012 07:04 PM
Michael M Where is Cesar Millan when you need him???
10-10-2012 06:59 PM
AVN
Quote:
Originally Posted by DogFish View Post
If by negative reinforcement you mean hanging a dog, using a Prong, choker, zapping it with an E-collar or shaking it then your quote that's just not completely true.

At best it's acceptable depending on the "community" of training one is involved in. Hunting, Schutzhund, Civil PP, Obedience Comp. maybe, Therapy, Service dogs, Agility, no...not so much.

Now if if you might mean Negative re-enforcement via ignoring the dog holding back praise, ball or food yes I agree and I use that approach.

As far as "Old School" I learned that way 30 yrs ago. I reject those methods as I prefer the Sirus method and that's the style I train in. I want my dogs to "execute" commands because they want to not out of fear of punishment.

I hunt myself and among other this have hunted hawgs in Tn. the traditional way. I do understand the challenges with working a pack. However, all animal training is ultimately Stimulus/Response. It's really only a matter of which stimulus you choose to present to the dog.
Someone who knows what he's talking about!

I don't train my dogs to execute commands because they're fearful of what may happen when they don't, they execute commands because they receive praise and positive reinforcement. Most of them want to obey of their own free will, not because they're afraid I'll punish them.

I am not referring to prongs, shock, choke, etc, etc. I don't use those methods as I know when abused they can lead to long-term behavioral damage of the dog in question.

When referring to negative reinforcement, it is exactly as you say, withholding of rewards, scoldings, and in the extreme cases a "slap on the wrist." Punishing the dog when it does something it's not supposed to do, not punishing it because it didn't do what you want it to do.
10-10-2012 06:12 PM
Rainer
Quote:
Originally Posted by DogFish View Post
I hunt myself and among other this have hunted hawgs in Tn. the traditional way.
Boar spear?
10-10-2012 05:45 PM
DogFish
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVN View Post
Dogfish are a species of shark!
In my case Dog-Fish are my hobbies/passions in life. I do private human training for people that own larger bred, dominate dogs.

Koehler method was developed to get dogs ready for military for battle. The mindset at that time toward the dogs was more medieval. There wasn't much concern administrate;y if they came home or not.

"However, there is no argument in the community that negative reinforcement is an effective and HARMLESS training tool if done correctly."

If by negative re-imforcement you mean Hanging a dog, using a Prong, Choker, Zapping it with an E-collar or shaking it then your quote that's just not completely true.

At best it's acceptable depending on the "community" of training one is involved in. Hunting, Schutzhund, Civil PP, Obedience Comp. maybe, Therapy, Service dogs, Agility, no...not so much.

Now if if you might mean Negitive re-enforcement via ignoring the dog holding back praise, ball or food yes I agree and I use that approach.

As far as "Old School" I learned that way 30 yrs ago. I reject those methods as I prefer the Sirus method and that's the style I train in. I want my dogs to "excute" commands because they want to not out of fear of punishment.

Just to bring it home I've owned Catahoulas that have high pointed in Open Bays, Am. Bulldog that was Civil PP trained, Rottweiler that is retired Schutzhund dog...All have gotten TDI certs, all championed in conformation.

I hunt myself and among other this have hunted hawgs in Tn. the traditional way. I do understand the challenges with working a pack. However, all animal training is ultimately Silmulus/Responce. It's really only a matter of which stimulus you choose to present to the dog.
10-10-2012 05:43 PM
HighDesert
Quote:
Originally Posted by DogFish View Post
When the water temps drop the metabolic rate lowers. At a certain point reduced blood flow to the brain induces coma, then the organs shut down and the the heart stops. There is no over stimulation to the nerves.(what we call pain)

I put the fish in a small bag of water in the freezer before I leave the house for the day. When I return the frozen bag & the deceased go out to the trash and life goes on.
This follows along the lines of the "shock" method and is much easier to stomach. This is a gradual temperature decrease, so the metabolism slows and so does the fish, but it is not being suffocated at the same time. What bothers me is fish being removed from the water into an uncomfortable environment and then being exposed to cold air which surely hurts as they try to breathe it. I've had frost bite before and it hurt like hell as it started to set in, stopped hurting, and then the thawing hurt like hell again. So I think that the "fish out of water, into the freezer" method is somewhat barbaric.
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