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Topic Review (Newest First)
02-25-2013 08:38 AM
javajive1981
Re: Enough co2?

This is why i think i might avoid Co2. I am lucky in that PH is quite stable. I don't want to risk stressing out my fish.
02-24-2013 08:23 PM
Hoppy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkblade48 View Post
It will be less if you have a high kH, since the bicarbonate will act as a buffer and prevent the pH from dropping too much.
No, the "buffer" isn't really a buffer. It doesn't resist pH changes. All it does is shift the pH that the water assumes with CO2 in it higher. The change in pH is the same per ppm of CO2 whatever the kH is. i.e. the ppm of CO2 needed to give you a certain pH is directly proportional to the KH of the water.
02-24-2013 06:40 PM
Darkblade48
Quote:
Originally Posted by javajive1981 View Post
Is the effect less if you have a high GH and KH?
It will be less if you have a high kH, since the bicarbonate will act as a buffer and prevent the pH from dropping too much.
02-24-2013 11:15 AM
javajive1981
Re: Enough co2?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkblade48 View Post
That is what I thought as well.


While the rest of the quoted material is fine, this is the important part. When there is a lower level of CO2 (i.e. CO2 is no longer being injected, or a lower amount is being injected) present in the water column.

With less CO2 being injected, the pH will not decrease as much, resulting in an "increase" in pH (rather, the pH shifts back closer to the initial value before CO2 injection).
Is the effect less if you have a high GH and KH?
02-23-2013 10:39 PM
Darkblade48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoppy View Post
Adding CO2 will always decrease the pH. That actual pH depends on the KH, but the change in pH with added CO2 is always a reduction.
That is what I thought as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by papwalker View Post
The carbonic acid concentration decreases so as to bring the system back into equilibrium with the new lower level of CO2.
While the rest of the quoted material is fine, this is the important part. When there is a lower level of CO2 (i.e. CO2 is no longer being injected, or a lower amount is being injected) present in the water column.

With less CO2 being injected, the pH will not decrease as much, resulting in an "increase" in pH (rather, the pH shifts back closer to the initial value before CO2 injection).
02-23-2013 09:27 PM
Hoppy
Quote:
Originally Posted by papwalker View Post
Most tank plants won't benefit from CO2 because of poor light or more likely poor nutrients in substrate.
I'm sure most here know that plants breath oxygen, they eat CO2.
Even very low light tanks will grow plants better if you use CO2. Tropica research has demonstrated that. And, those of us who have tried it have also noted it.
Quote:
Also adding CO2 can increase or decrease pH depending on carbonates.
Adding CO2 will always decrease the pH. That actual pH depends on the KH, but the change in pH with added CO2 is always a reduction.
Quote:
Most importantly, increasing CO2 can kill fish in marginal O2 tanks because of partial pressure issues at the gills. Excel is also a reducing agent so it can also kill fish in marginal O2 tanks.
Excel, used per the Seachem directions, has not been shown to harm the fish in any way. All aquariums need a good dissolved oxygen content in the water. That is the oxygen the fish need to live. With or without CO2 being added, the fish need oxygen. With high levels of CO2, the fish can live with the CO2 much better, and at higher levels, if the water is always near saturation with dissolved oxygen.
02-23-2013 07:02 PM
Darkblade48
Quote:
Originally Posted by papwalker View Post
@darkblade48
I posted some info regarding CO2 ph effects with buffering.
It is being withheld by the moderator???
I can possibly get it to you on the msg system here if you're keen.
The same chemistry explains why moderate increases co2 can kill fish as most of us animal earthlings use carbonate buffers to transport co2 for disposal.
Links to outside sites are generally reviewed before being allowed, I believe (this is true for new users). I have approved your post.

Thanks for the links; I will be sure to read them in detail. I am a scientist by background, so this is quite interesting to me
02-23-2013 02:42 PM
javajive1981
Re: Enough co2?

I
Quote:
Originally Posted by snausage View Post
The algae is being caused by the fact goldfish are fun to feed and we tend to do it way too often!!!!!!

If you're happy with your plant growth as is, don't bother with CO2, as high CO2 and goldfish don't mix.

To lessen the amount of algae, cut back on feeding, shorten the photoperiod and do more water changes. Adding some excel will also definitely help as well.
Thanks :thumbup:
I feed them once a day. I give them what they can eat in a few minutes. Maybe i should make.it every other day and bring the light period down to.
02-23-2013 02:33 PM
papwalker @darkblade48
I posted some info regarding CO2 ph effects with buffering.
It is being withheld by the moderator???
I can possibly get it to you on the msg system here if you're keen.
The same chemistry explains why moderate increases co2 can kill fish as most of us animal earthlings use carbonate buffers to transport co2 for disposal.
02-23-2013 10:16 AM
papwalker Greg Morin has a brilliant explanation in the downloadable document at
http://www.seachem.com/Library/Artic...PlantChemistry

Warning, it can be tough going if you're new to chemistry although he does a creditable job of explaining Le Chatelier's Law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Chatelier's_principle

CO2, buffer and water interactions paraphrased...

The carbonic acid concentration decreases so as to bring the system back into equilibrium with the new lower level of CO2. When
the carbonic acid level drops, the bicarbonate level drops as well which in turn yields a higher pH (dropping levels of bicarbonate necessarily produce a drop in hydroniumion). Likewise, an increase in CO
2 will result in an increase in carbonic acid, followed by an increase in bicarbonate and its concomitant hydronium ion, which results in a pH decrease.

This is why medecine and aquarium husbandry are never straight forward.

02-22-2013 07:11 PM
Darkblade48
Quote:
Originally Posted by papwalker View Post
Also adding CO2 can increase or decrease pH depending on carbonates.
Can you please provide an explanation?
02-22-2013 06:33 PM
papwalker Most tank plants won't benefit from CO2 because of poor light or more likely poor nutrients in substrate.
I'm sure most here know that plants breath oxygen, they eat CO2.

Also adding CO2 can increase or decrease pH depending on carbonates.

Most importantly, increasing CO2 can kill fish in marginal O2 tanks because of partial pressure issues at the gills. Excel is also a reducing agent so it can also kill fish in marginal O2 tanks.
02-22-2013 04:55 PM
snausage The algae is being caused by the fact goldfish are fun to feed and we tend to do it way too often!!!!!!

If you're happy with your plant growth as is, don't bother with CO2, as high CO2 and goldfish don't mix.

To lessen the amount of algae, cut back on feeding, shorten the photoperiod and do more water changes. Adding some excel will also definitely help as well.
02-22-2013 02:37 PM
Paxx
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkblade48 View Post
DIY CO2 on a 55 gallon aquarium could work, but would require several 2 litre bottles in order for it to achieve the necessary CO2 levels.

Excel is an option, but as you have realized, can be very expensive for a 55 gallon aquarium. In the long run, using a pressurized CO2 system would be much more economical.
+1
I used two or three 2L DIY/Excel on my own 55 for 4 years. The plants did ok and grew, but so did algae. I needed new plants about once a year as the "old" plants couldn't compete long-term with the algae and became stunted and/or algae covered. My tank maintenance of 50% weekly water changes (RO/DI), recommended Flourish fert line dosages, powerful water flow and filtration kept the fish superb and thriving, the plants not so much.

I switched at the end of last year to pressurized CO2 (GLA Reg/#10 tank, thank you Dark), DIY ferts in solution using the EI method, reduced lighting slightly (thank you Hoppy), and continued the routine maintenance. After two months the results convinced me that this is something I should have done 4 years ago.

When you can afford it get a decent quality regulator/needle valve/bubble counter/drop checker, you will not regret it.
02-21-2013 10:01 PM
junglefowl
Enough co2?

Quote:
Originally Posted by javajive1981 View Post
hell yeah its only been set up a few months and i think i have just about every type of algae going. Its brown algae on my plants that i'm battling atm. But i have hair algae, green spotty algae, bba
You need CO2 for sure to balance your tank and get rid of algea...
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