Seeking Balance : Need Some Advice

[skoorbza]

I would really appreciate some more direction for moving toward a balanced, happier tank.

The stats:
15G
local river gravel substrate, sifted to 2-4mm (over a sprinkling of peat, clay, and osmocote)
Nitrate = 30
Nitrite = 0+ a teency
GH = 350
KH = 280
pH = 8.5
temp = 78
current lighting = 10w daylight CFL (read below for why)

remaining stock = 2 cherry barbs, 3 otos, 8 danios (they bred), 2 male RCS, one female ghost/glass shrimp

plants = amazon sword, bronze crypt wenditii, sunset hygro, moss (java, I think, tho I bought it as xmas), anubias nana

I'll try to make this brief: I set up the tank without properly reserching first, and didn't have the funds to get ferts, excel, and the like. I started with 15w of light (the bulb that came with the kit), then I bumped the light up to 24w via CFLs. The algae came. I've brought the lights down to the 10w I have now (about 8 hr photoperiod) to try to keep the algae under control until I could do more about it than prune it away.

(Edit: I change out 5G of water a week. I'm hoping more plants will help bring the nitrates down? Wrong?)

I'll soon have some money to put into the tank, and need your help in figuring out priorities.

#1 = API master test kit and gh/kh kit. The numbers above are with a strip, which I now know is worth crap.

Other purchases I plan:
Flourish Excel (the big bottle?)
Orlando's dry ferts mix
Some kind of trace ferts?
6 Amano Shrimp
20-30 RCS
2 Nerite Snails (Zebra & Red Spot)
2 more otos
More plants as they come up in S-n-S
!!somehow get rid of the danios!!

Is this a good list for a balanced tank? What should the priorities be? (I won't be able to afford it all at once.) Do I get the cleanup crew first or last? Do I add more plants, then ferts, then more light?

I have read all over, some really great threads and advice. I used to be really sharp at this sort of thing. Unfortunately, my children have taken my brain, so I would really appreciate your input on where I might go from here.

My tank journal is here, if you'd like pics: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/ta...tml#post677147

Thank you for your advice.

[skoorbza]

(no one? Help, please!!!)

(bump)

[airborne_r6]

I could be wrong but I think that your question is too general. You will get about 800 different answers and so maybe no one is answering because they dont know in exactly what direction to point you. I would recommend continuing to research what you are trying to achieve and taking small steps in that direction.

I just set up my first planted tank, a 20H, and am in about the same circumstance you are. I have some minor algae issues and the plants that werent melting on their own I melted with excel. I started out with not enough light and so I ordered parts to upgrade my lighting. That should be here later this week and in preparation I have ordered extra plants, especially some fast growing stems to help combat algae. I have researched DIY CO2 and will have it up and running when I add the extra plants. I am researching dosing and should be ready to start dosing about the time I get the extra light on. I am trying to tackle one thing at a time, concentrating on keeping consistency with my CO2, dosing and water changes. Hopefully that will give me more specific problems that I can take on as they present themselves.

Disclaimer: This is my first tank and following this advice could lead you down the same dismal road that I have set myself on.

[skoorbza]

Thanks, airborne.

I'm really just asking for practical help with priorities:

1. Do I get the nitrates down before doing anything else? How, besides lots of water changes (which I've started doing)?
2. Should I expand my clean-up crew and get them established before starting excel and ferts? Or the other way around?
3. Do I bump up the lights at the same time as I begin dosing ferts?
4. Do I need trace ferts?

Hope that's clearer and more specific.

Thanks again for the kind response.

[Ugly Genius]

I find the best way to go is to set up the tank as if no algae eaters will ever live there.

First you decide what type of plants you are going to plant. That dictates the lighting you will require which in turn will dictate which type and how much ferts to dose. Depending on the plants choices, and consequently the lighting and fert schedule to be employed, you may or may not need CO2.

The good thing about a fifteen gallon tank is that you can grow pretty much anything without breaking the bank.

So:
What plants do you plan on growing?

[Hoppy]

Don't worry about the nitrates, they aren't a problem. I suggest getting some Excel first. Now, what kind of algae do you have, what does it look like, or a picture would be best? You don't really have a lot of light, and didn't have a lot even when the algae hit. So, something else is not right. How are you filtering the tank? How often do you feed the fish, and how much?

With no CO2 and no Excel, doing big water changes is a bad idea, from an algae standpoint. You add some CO2 each time you change a lot of water, then the level of CO2 drops back to near zero. This fluctuation in CO2 will encourage algae to start growing.

Since you aren't fertilizing the tank, but seem to have high nitrate (and you may not actually have high nitrate) the only source would be fish poop and excessive food rotting.

[cjp999]

I'm still new to this, but I'm a big fan of nerites and excel. They allow you to get away with higher light and less balance (shrimp and algae eating fish also help). Many on PT will probably tell you to balance things out instead. In other words, fix this problem, don't hide it with a band aide. This is fine, but I prefer an approach that requires less finesse. But like I said, I'm still new to this. My approach may fail, and certainly I don't expect the results that people who fine tune their tank get.

I would put the nerites high on your list. I think they do the best all round job of algae cleanup, especially getting plant leaves really clean. Zebra and Red Spot tend to cost 2x to 3x more than Olive, but I think they don't get as big. I've had two Olives for about 3 months now. Couldn't find any more locally, so I ordered a bunch of Zebra and Red Spot from www.invertzfactory.com. However, with the small numbers you are dealing with, just buy whatever you can find locally.

For Excel, Big Al's had a sale recently. $22 for a 2L bottle. That makes Excel very affordable, even for larger tanks. I picked up one and also got free shipping at the time. However, for a 15g, 2L would probably last you like 4 years. Maybe get 500ml for now. That's good for a year in a 15g, and lets you decide if Excel is really the way you want to go, without having to put out too much money.

As for you nitrates, test you tap water. If the nitrates are high going in, then water changes aren't going to help get them real low. If your tap is 0ppm, you change 25% water a week, and nitrates still measure 30ppm, then something is wrong. Either your test kit is not accurate, or you are dumping in way too much food (or a lot of plants or fish are dying and not being removed). I wouldn't expect plants in a low light tank to help too much with high nitrates.

BTW, my main tanks are a low light 10g and a medium/high light 46g. Both get daily excel. I just started DIY CO2 on the 46g. They've only been planted for two weeks.

Good luck!

[danakin]

DIY CO2 is another option. Super cheap, super easy. With such low light and such high water changes, this should help prevent algae.

[cjp999]

Originally Posted by danakin

DIY CO2 is another option. Super cheap, super easy. With such low light and such high water changes, this should help prevent algae.

I just got started with DIY CO2. Been doing Excel for a few months now. Excel is easier and I believe cheaper. DIY CO2 has the following to contend with:

• leaks
• clogs leading to explosions (and the constant worry about it)
• siphoning into tank (and more worrying)
• tweaking the formula (and too much thinking/research about what will work best)
• CO2 diffusion (more research and decision making)
• space
• up front effort and cost to setup

Yes, clogs and siphoning can be averted for the most part...with yet more upfront work.

For Excel, about the only upfront work is getting a descent dispenser so the daily task of adding it becomes easy. Look for a recent dispenser thread I created for some tips.

The only reason I've added DIY CO2 is to complement the Excel in my medium/high light tank. Otherwise I'd stick with just Excel.

One thing I don't know is how good of a carbon source Excel is compared to DIY or pressurized CO2. I've never seen any remarks like "Excel will give you half the growth of 30ppm CO2", or something like that.

I'm also not sure about the same for DIY CO2. If it takes 3bpm to get 30ppm CO2, how good is 1bpm in terms of plant growth? I'm assuming it is better than 1/3 the growth, since at 30ppm only a small percent of the CO2 actually ends up getting utilized.

[skoorbza]

Wow, thanks, everybody!

As soon as the paycheck hits my account Friday, I'll start with ordering the test kits. Then I'll know better where I stand. My test strip shows 0 nitrates in the tap, so (if it's right) it must be something I'm doing in the tank. I generally only feed enough so that I don't see any hit the bottom. What the danios at the top miss, the barbs catch in the middle. But there has been plenty of mulm when I vacuum, so maybe it is too much food.

danakin & cjp: When I expand to a larger tank, I'll go co2, but for my setup right now, I'm hoping Excel will do the trick. I'll go for the 500ml on Friday too, and probably the ferts.

UglyGenius: I got some plants on S-n-S that should arrive this week, but I haven't been able to find out a lot about them (except a. nana). They are: 1 rorami, 1 anubias nana, 8-10 Lagarosiphon madagascariensis, and 3 polygonum kawageanum. I bought them because it was a nice amount of plant material for a good price. Am I right that I need to get lots more plants to help the balance and to out-compete algae??

Because I replaced the flourescent ballast with two standard screw-in fixtures under the hood, my lighting (via cfl) is very flexible. I have 10w, 15w, and 24w daylight bulbs that I can swap in and out of the fixtures for lots of combinations. Do I up the lights (slowly) at the same time as I start to add fertilizer?

The reason I keep dithering with the cleanup crew is that I don't know if balance alone can tackle the existing algae, or if it makes more sense to bring the crew in to help knock it back. Also, if I clean all the algae out, will the crew be as happy without something to do/eat? (I'm going for the fancier nerites because I have little kids, and they like flashier things in the tank.)

I should also note here that there is NOTHING on the list that I can get locally. The ONLY place for fish or supplies here is Wal-Mart.

Hoppy: Here are a couple of algae pics:




There is also a dusty gray fuzz in the moss that I can't seem to get a good picture of.

Thanks to each of you for your points of view, it has helped so far. Keep it comin', please?

<< Edit: my filter is the HOB that came with the kit. I clean the tube and flywheel area each week when I change the water. It has a blue filter with charcoal inside that I rinse in old tank water each week and replace every month or so. It also has the white coarse "biofilter" that I keep in tank water and swish and squeeze in old tank water about every 4-6 months. It seems to move the water through pretty well... >>

[cjp999]

Good question regarding keeping the cleanup crew happy after things are under control. Shrimp, even the algae lovers, should be happy with anything that reaches the bottom. Nerites however will only eat algae, but I believe algae wafers can subsitute. I added 14 nerites to my 46g, and it looks sparkling after just a few days, so I probably have too many now. I'm thinking a bit less snail bioload would be a better choice than feeding them algae wafers. I also have a 5g hex that I call my algae tank. I could store some nerites in it until needed. I intentionally have loaded it up with algae. The original intent was to make it brackish and try to breed nerites, but over the past couple of months I've needed it as a temp home for fish, snails, and shrimp for a variety of reasons. I'm getting close to where I might have a shot at trying to breed nerites in it, and maybe also trying to raise amano babies.

Regarding the HOB filter, general consensus is that you don't need to replace the blue pad with the charcoal. The charcoal will quickly become inactive, but then it is not really needed in a planted tank. I think very few on this forum use charcoal except for special cicrcumstances (like removing medications after treatment it complete). So just rinse out the blue pad every now and then (probably every two weeks is good). Don't replace it until it's falling apart or your having trouble keeping you water clear. I'm not sure what the "white coarse biofilter" is that you are referring to, but I would clean it based on how quickly it gets dirty. It would be best not to do both the blue and the white filters at the same time, since this may reduce your N-bacteria levels by too much (they take a hit every time you clean your filter).

I can't comment too much on your plant load question. What I can tell you is that with high light, the plants won't be able to out compete the algae without pressurized CO2. So, with just Excel, you'll need to choose some appropriate medium light level (maybe even med/low). In low light tanks, I'm not sure if the issue of out competing the algae really applies, but I'll let an expert comment on that.

[skoorbza]

Thanks, cjp! There's a part of me that wants to try the crew first, to see what they can do...

Good advice on the charcoal/blue filter, I'm sure. I had read that they didn't need to be replaced that much, but with my nitrates in the pink (as it were) I wanted to be sure that dirty floss wasn't messing me up. It's an expense I certainly don' need!

The white filter thing is very stiff open floss that resides after the blue one. It never has actual visible debris in it. Since they recommend changing the blue one all the time, the white one is supposed to house the beneficial bacteria, which is why I just swish it around now and then in old tank water.

[hokuryu]

Originally Posted by cjp999

I've never seen any remarks like "Excel will give you half the growth of 30ppm CO2

Just anecdotally, and I may have gotten the quote completely wrong (so Tom Barr, please excuse my misinformation if so), but I was told that Tom concludes Excel is about 1/5 as effective a carbon source as injected CO2. I don't have any data points to see specifically his reasoning so (if indeed I've gotten it right, and this is an accurate statement of his conclusions), but would guess that as carbon is critical to photosynthesis (and growth), this is a loose estimation of the relative effectiveness of the two methods to plant growth.

It seems commonsensical that it depends on how much Excel, too, vis-a-vis a tank regime with 30 ppm CO2 - I know in my case, I was advised to O.D. the amount by quite a bit, which I plan on doing at least until my injected CO2 is set up. 5X the recommended dosage, to be exact, with no adverse effects on fauna in the tank thus far, and growth in my newly planted crypts that is encouraging.

I just don't feel like burning through that much Excel every month+, and as I had some of the CO2 components already on hand, I decided to take the plunge.

[Ugly Genius]

Were it my tank, to minimize headaches later, I would balance the tank now before you introduce an algae crew. Algae like that, while not terrible, is indicative of parameters that need some tweaking. In my experience, an algae crew can never eliminate an algae outbreak. Meaning, if you don't balance the tank, the algae will keep growing and, probably, outpace any algae eaters you put in there.
I'd get your water parameters in check, then balance light/CO2/ferts, and then put in some algae eaters.

More succinctly, yes, I believe that balance alone can beat that algae. I'd go one step further and say that only balance can beat algae. Algae eaters are more for our amusement than algae abatement, in my experience.

[skoorbza]

Okay! Great!

So, I'll go for the test kits, excel, and ferts this paycheck. The plants should be here this week. I'll try to achieve a balance with nutrients and lighting.

Next pay period, I'll go for some Crew if I've found a reasonable balance.

Thank you!