Seeking Balance : Need Some Advice

[jeff@zina.com]

Originally Posted by skoorbza

Thank you for your advice.

More otocinclus and add CO2 to the tank. Algae doesn't need more fertilizer. The CO2 will allow the current plants to use the current fertilizer.

Jeff

[cjp999]

You might want to read the following blog:

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.u...php?blogid=234

The author switched from injected CO2 to Easycarbo, which I believe is similar to Excel. He was tired of the negatives of injected CO2, and found Easycarbo gave him the growth he wanted without the CO2 hassles and expense. Note the growth he wanted was not "high", and he did use injected CO2 to get the tank established, which I would assume would have taken much longer with Easycarbo.

[skoorbza]

jeff@zina: Okay. But what if there isn't any current ferti;izer, or not enough? If you can see under the algae in the above pics, you can see the anubias is starting to pale, and is spotty...both signs of deficiency, I think. Will the carbon result from Excel allow the plants to recover without added ferts?

The otos ARE in the plan, but i don't have much in the way of diatoms for them. They don't seem to go for the fuzz on the leaves. (I did have 5, but recently had two deaths that I attributed to nitrates.)

cjp: thanks for the link!

[cjp999]

Originally Posted by skoorbza

jeff@zina: Okay. But what if there isn't any current ferti;izer, or not enough? If you can see under the algae in the above pics, you can see the anubias is starting to pale, and is spotty...both signs of deficiency, I think. Will the carbon result from Excel allow the plants to recover without added ferts?

You have a good point. Plants need many different nutrients in order to grow. It seems algae is much more opportunistic. So for example, your algae could be the result of plenty available N, but the tank may be lacking K, P, or some micros, and therefore the plants can't use up the N, even if you add the CO2.

[skoorbza]

Thanks, I thought it was something like that!

... Just waiting for $$ to clear ... ...

[Homer_Simpson]

In my experience, the critical piece to the balance puzzle is really light and it ties in to everything else.

With low light levels, the demand for nutrients and c02 is far less. If you don't inject c02 and or do not use seachem excel it would matter little, but would not hurt. If you screw up with ferts or dosing, no problem. As you are not trying to stimulate fast plant growth with high light and stable sufficient c02 levels, algae would have little chance of materializing. the light is not sufficient to ignite algae. Fine tuning and tweaking at higher light levels can be challenging as you end up monkeying around with so many variables to avoid or deal with algae: including consistent/stable c02 through efficient diffusion, circulation/flow, and fert dosing to match. Monkeying around with light levels is far more easier and less time consuming to achieving balance. It is the most easily controlled vs messing with c02 level/consistency and fert dosing. I have been down this road and found that out the hard way.

As far as algae eaters, I have some(amano shrimp and otocats) in my low tech tanks and have had them in the tanks for some time. They do fine with algae wafers and zucchini. They have gone a long time without algae and are fine.

[skoorbza]

Thanks, Homer!

That's why I've had my tank with less than 1 wpg for so long. I'm trying to discourage algae, because I didn't have the ferts and co2 (excel) for the plants. I don't need to go high-light or hi-tech, I just want to have a happy little tank for right now, happy creatures, happy plants.

When I get the ferts and excel, my plan right now is to add them slowly, starting with just the smallest useful dose. I'll give some time for the plants to notice. Then I'll bump the lights by 5W. Then I'll watch and wait. With terrestrial gardens, I let the plants tell me what they need. I don't yet understand the underwater language yet, so have been flailing quite a bit. Learning curve, and all that.

I don't need the plants to be exploding with growth, and I don't (at this point) need to grow rare or delicate specimens. I'd like to see a little bronze on my bronze crypt wenditii, and a little sunset on my hygro, but more light than that isn't necessary right now.

With the daylight CFLs I have, I can go from 10W to 15w to 24w, which is right around my 2wpg target. (I have a lot of substrate and hardscape, so 15g isn't really how much water is in there...)

Thanks again for your input, and I look forward to reading any more tips or hints y'all have!

[Homer_Simpson]

Originally Posted by skoorbza

Thanks, Homer!...Thanks again for your input, and I look forward to reading any more tips or hints y'all have!

You are welcome I urge you to check out my experiment here:
http://azdhan.googlepages.com/thelostworld

There were many lessons I learned from that:

(1) Testing water parameters and shooting for ideal levels is over-rated. If you check out monthly log, you will notice that for the most par tested water parameters were pretty stable and within levels that would be considered ideal for plant growth. Nitrates and phosphates were tested using calibrated test kits. Plant growth was explosive and you would think that with such rapid healthy plant growth, there would be no algae. Such was not the case. Although c02 was DIY, the drop checker with 4dKH solution always indicated a lime green which would suggest sufficient c02 levels.

(2) Don't overstock. This was the biggest mistake and there were needless fish deaths as a result, but I believe I also was feeding them bad fish food without realizing it and this was partially responsible.

(3) The biggest lesson. Light is the over-riding factor. This was a 10 gallon with only 2 15 watt compact fluorescent 6500 K daylight spiral bulbs, so who would ever think that this would be considered too much light. For months I played around with fert dosing hoping to get things stable and for algae to recede. Better c02 diffusion, increased circulation, daily 2x dosing of Seachem Excel, high plant density, you name it. You know what finally caused things to stabilize and for algae to totally recede. The addition of about 5 Amano Shrimp coupled with a reduction in lighting. All I did was replace the 2 6500 K daylight spiral bulbs with 2 10 watt compact fluorescent 6500 K daylight spiral bulbs. In other words reducing total light from 30 watts to 20 watts made a "day and night difference." Plant growth did slow down, but growth was still lush green and healthy. And most important, the algae literally disappeared within a month of this change with no other changes. Tom Barr has repeatedly referenced the huge role light plays and I have repeatedly posted this because I learned the hard way, but folks still think it is BS.

[CKJ]

How long has your tank been set up?

I too have heard those test strips aren't reliable. So since you mentioned you had a small nitrite reading i'm wondering if your tank is cycled.

I'm still new at this too but did you have a reading for ammonia?

Here are some things i've learned and hope someone will correct me if i'm wrong. I just have a low light tank so I can't help with co2 or ferts but other wonderful people here can help with those!

So definately get the test kit first! And lets get your tank balanced!

And also determine why the algea has gone nuts! Try to figure a way to correct the problem and not just treat the problem or it will just come back with a vengence. Maybe decreasing the photoperiod will help and a good vaccuming to get up excess food and poo but still need to fix why it's gone nuts.

Since your nitrates maybe high 50% water changes every couple days will help and along with a good deep gravel cleaning will really help as well. So you may want to get a gravel vac too. Once you get a good handle on your parimeters and have a good amount of plants you may not need to clean the gravel much or at all anymore. But you'd be surprised how much excess food and poo you'll pick up. That will help keep your fishies safe.

Also try and determine how many fish you can actually have in a 15 gal so you don't get over stocked which will mean even more frequent water changes.

And if you are wanting shrimp research to see what fish will be compatible with them. One really good one is the otto cat, but my neons and mollies are fine with them but don't trust my short experience so far with shrimp. All is well for now with my otto, neons, mollies and crs and I hope it stays that way!

But also as far as shrimp they aren't huge waste producers at all! So you can have quite a few more of those if you like but they are sensitive to water changes so i'd wait till your tank is more stable before you add those. I have cherry red shrimp and had a little bit of algea on my java moss a bit like what you have and OMG my moss looks super now!

In my filter I use charcoal because I have shrimp but I just replace the charcoal every now and then but other than rinsing them in used tank water I haven't changed them in a year. When my water flow decreases it's time for a filter rinse. So you can refill the charcoal but but not the pads unless they are falling apart.

I hope i've been able to help some with my experiences.

Take care!

Cindy

[skoorbza]

Thanks, Homer and Cindy!

Homer, I believe you about the lights. Just gotta figure out enough for healthy plants, but not enough for healthy algae! And I read the whole experiment and found it quite interesting! The main reason that I'm so concerned with testing is that I'm still learning the language of planted tanks. If I look at a house plant or one of the plants in my yard, I can tell by looking at it if it is getting too much/not enough: sun, water, iron, space, etc. I can't do the same thing with my tank yet. My frustrations are coming from my ignorance of experience... the broad-leaf plants (sword and anubias nana) are growing pale... is that light? Iron? Potassium? Carbon? I have no idea. My Sunset Hygro doesn't grow tall anymore... not enough light? No nutrients? No clue. So, I'm hoping that when my new purchases arrive (test kits, dry fert mix, excel), I can add things slowly and monitor the effects. Perhaps I am insane, though. So there's that.

CKJ - The tank has been set up since the summer, and is stocked (probably TOO stocked, since my danios bred). I don't have an ammonia test. I thought lots of water changes too, but above, I read that:

Hoppy
With no CO2 and no Excel, doing big water changes is a bad idea, from an algae standpoint. You add some CO2 each time you change a lot of water, then the level of CO2 drops back to near zero. This fluctuation in CO2 will encourage algae to start growing.

The Danios and Cherry Barbs in the tank are safe (mostly) with adult shrimp, but love those tasty babies!! I have a couple of RCS, and plan on adding more, and several Amano. I had 5 otos, one died without known cause, and the other died with its head stuck in the mouth of my poor, late, Dwarf Frog, Bubby. They are FAR shier as 3, and seem skittish and freaked-out, even though weeks have passed. I plan to replenish the school when the tank is more settled.

Thanks again to both of you for your help in this. I'm really looking forward to a tank that I can look at and enjoy, instead of despair.

[CKJ]

Good luck to you and let us know how things are going!! Your not insane yet!

Oh hey start a tank journal if you want! Those are pretty cool for everyone and then you can look back and see your progress and we can too!

Take care!!

I hope I was of some help but i'm still learning too!

LOL

Cindy

[Homer_Simpson]

skoorbza, try and shoot for 2 watts/per gallon and no less than 1.5 watts/per gallon. Below these levels, I think that you will run into problems with plant growth. The substrate IME, also plays a critical role. If you have deep rooting plants, from what I have observed, they will quickly put out deep thick healthy roots in a nutritious substate. This can be something as simple as root tabs under pool filter sand, mineralized toposoil(I am just guessing here and will be experimenting with it in the future), ADA Aquasoil, redsea flora base, etc., Once the plants form deep thick healthy roots, IME, they tend to really take off and do better. And with healthy plant growth and lower light levels, it would be difficult for algae to get a stranglehold on your tank.

[skoorbza]

Goodness, thanks again.

Had some setback here. Another oto just up and died, and my worthless test strip insists that the water quality is fine. That's two dead in a month without known cause.

I got my new plants in, and they have all proceeded to melt. Unsure as to whether they froze in transit, if they are transitioning, or if I just suck at this.

Cindy - My tank journal post is here: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/ta...avy-input.html

I guess I should've posted this there....

Homer: A big challenge for me has been my location. I am a two-hour drive (each way) from the closest MIDDLING lfs. I've searched every grocery, nursery, big box, feed store, hardware store, equipment store within 50 miles, and what I have is Wal-Mart. It is the only place for anything aquarium-related (right now, they have dwarf puffers for $5), but the stock is contained in less than 20' of one aisle. That includes fish, tanks, substrate, everything.

What does this mean? I have to order everything, which is fine, but I'm a mom with two little ones, and don't have tons of extra cash to be gaily tossing about. So, I dug my substrate out of the Platte River, sifting it through first a window screen, then a 1/4" grating. I washed and dried and baked it. It is the topping for peat moss, a sprinkle of clay litter, and Mr. Barr's recommended amount of Osmocote. My Amazon sword in the corner has roots all the way to the bottom, and through much of the substrate. I was hoping mulm would help revitalize the gravel, and I will be adding ferts to the water column as soon as they get here. You think root tabs too? Seachem? I've heard some people cut them up...yes?

Ugh. Sorry this post is so choppy -- not sleeping much here.

So, I'll go ahead and bring the light up to 15w tomorrow. The excel and ferts should be here this coming week.

Thanks again.

[BiscuitSlayer]

I agree with most of what Homer suggested. I have a few things that I think might have been overlooked.

Some of that algae looks like it will have a problem standing up to Excel treatments. When you start dosing excel, turn off your lights (or do it when the lights are off anyway) and shut down your filter for one hour. If you have some type of syringe or somemthing of that nature, put the excel into it before dosing into the tank and "spot treat" the excel right above the algae infested areas. Be slow and gentle as you don't want a lot of disruption during this treatment phase. That is another reason you turn the filter off for an hour during the process. I feel that if you go this route, you might knock back the algae fairly quickly. If you start to see the strands turn white in color, it is working.

Secondly, your ferts will probably help tremendously. NPK are what you need the most, and I have a feeling that youre tank is running low on one or more of them depending on what you have said. I would venture to say that it is probably N and K mostly. I have been down the road that you are on right now, and I saw a drastic difference just getting my macro ferts in order.

I suspect that if you get your plants to optimal health, the algae control will come in line.

Edit: Let me know if you need a syringe. I have some large extras that will work perfectly for this application along with some long feeding tubes to get right down next to the leaves.

[skoorbza]

Thanks for the specifics, BiscuitSlayer. I'll try that! I'll also cut away what I can. Each week I usually choose a few of the worst affected leaves to prune. I have a big turkey baster that I use in the tank, and I also have several little syringes (I cleaned and repurposed some from the kids medical stuff). I think they'll work okay. I'll let you know if they don't. I need to stay away from the mosses with excel, don't I?

I think the ferts (lack of) are a really big part of it too. Since the algae is so opportunistic, it's growing well with almost no light. The plants just haven't had the opportunity with no food!!

I'm really wanting to get this to work out. It's really sad looking at the tank right now, with algae, melting plants, dying creatures every week or so.... I love to gaze at Happy Tank, but Tank of Despair... nope.

Thanks again for your help. I'm checking the mail every day for my test kits and ferts/excel!!