Chloramine and Plants...... Questions?

[vance71975]

Well after much posting and research i am beginning to doubt that it was the calcium that killed my shrimp. I think the problem was Chloramines in the water, Which leads me to wonder something. Do you guys and gals think that Chloramines could be what keeps killing my plants? Does anyone Know if there has been any research done on the effects of Chloramines on Aquatic plants?

At any rate i have Prime now, so i dont think it should be a future issue.

[vance71975]

Did i finally stump everyone???

[confuted]

You weren't dechlorinating your water? How lazy and cheap you get?

[jaidexl]

NO, I don't think you stumped anyone, we all use dechlor or RO, because we already know chloramine is bad.

[vance71975]

Originally Posted by confuted

You weren't dechlorinating your water? How lazy and cheap you get?

I was using a Declorinator, I was using Wardleys Chlor-Out but i didn't find out until very recently that it Doesn't remove Chloramines because the Bottle says it does!!!! I now have Prime which i know Removes both Chlorine and Chloramines.

[confuted]

Originally Posted by vance71975

I was using a Declorinator, I was using Wardleys Chlor-Out but i didn't find out until very recently that it Doesn't remove Chloramines because the Bottle says it does!!!! I now have Prime which i know Removes both Chlorine and Chloramines.

Source? I've been using Wardley's Chlor-Out for a long time without problem.

[vance71975]

Originally Posted by jaidexl

NO, I don't think you stumped anyone, we all use dechlor or RO, because we already know chloramine is bad.

The Question Remains Does Chloramines Kill Plants? Im well aware that it is toxic to fish and shrimp and As i said i Thought i was removing it because i trusted the label on the Product i was using, Which as i have stated before is Wardleys Chlor-out, But i had a link provided in another thread that says it Doesn't remove Chloramines(even though the bottle says it does) Had i know this i would have bought Prime from Get go and Saved myself the Heartache from loseing plants and Shrimp!

[vance71975]

Originally Posted by confuted

Source? I've been using Wardley's Chlor-Out for a long time without problem.

http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/rev-cond.htm

Look at the table and pay Close attn to the Note following the table.

I also Called Wardley or Hartz Mountain the Parent company to complain about this and they didn't seem at all shocked and Didn't even try to argue that their product DOES do what the label Says it does, which leads me to belive that they know it doesnt work as it says it does.

[over_stocked]

Chloramine is designed to inhibit all growth in your tap water... you do the math.

[vance71975]

Originally Posted by over_stocked

Chloramine is designed to inhibit all growth in your tap water... you do the math.

Inhibit Bacteria Growth. Looking for a little more of a fact based or Research based answer, i didn't ask if it would interfere with the Biological Filter. I want to know if its toxic to Plants.

[confuted]

Originally Posted by vance71975

http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/rev-cond.htm

Look at the table and pay Close attn to the Note following the table.

I also Called Wardley or Hartz Mountain the Parent company to complain about this and they didn't seem at all shocked and Didn't even try to argue that their product DOES do what the label Says it does, which leads me to belive that they know it doesnt work as it says it does.

Perhaps it was your argumentative attitude that made the Wardley rep want to get you off the phone. I'll quote the site you linked:

Note: Products where the second "Y" is in brackets [Wardley Chlor-out is such a product] are those which state that they remove chloramine, but in most cases contain only sodium thiosulfate (the same as standard dechlorinators for chlorine only). Usually, a higher dose is recommended for chloramines - this is to make sure the chlorine part is split from the chloramine and neutralised - however, this releases the ammonia part, so the chloramine is not fully dealt with. An example of the manufacturers' awareness of this, is shown by the fact that API recommend Ammo-Lock in conjunction with Stress Coat, if you need to deal with ammonia.

It still deals with the chloramine - it splits it into chlorine and ammonia, and then neutralizes the chlorine. Ammonia is left over in the water, but a heavy plant load and a good biological filter will remove the ammonia quickly - not nearly as big of a deal as you seem to be insinuating.

Let me guess - you didn't cycle your tanks, either.

[confuted]

Originally Posted by vance71975

Inhibit Bacteria Growth. Looking for a little more of a fact based or Research based answer, i didn't ask if it would interfere with the Biological Filter. I want to know if its toxic to Plants.

He meant what he said when he said all growth. The water company doesn't want seaweed and algae growing in the pipes any more than they want e-coli and salmonella in them.

[vance71975]

Originally Posted by confuted

Perhaps it was your argumentative attitude that made the Wardley rep want to get you off the phone. I'll quote the site you linked:



It still deals with the chloramine - it splits it into chlorine and ammonia, and then neutralizes the chlorine. Ammonia is left over in the water, but a heavy plant load and a good biological filter will remove the ammonia quickly - not nearly as big of a deal as you seem to be insinuating.

Let me guess - you didn't cycle your tanks, either.

Tanks Were Cycled, Some took well over a Month to Cycle, another member on here is the one that pointed me to that link, i wasn't argumentative on that phone.I was Inquisitive, because i have used Wardleys products for years, never had any problems till i decided to go planted and to try shrimp. As i said the lady didn't seem shocked at all, she was like ill send you this survey and a mailing label so you can ship us the bottle to be tested.I still Use wardleys flake food and Shrimp pellets with good results.

"Products where the second "Y" is in brackets are those which state that they remove chloramines, but in most cases contain only sodium thiosulfate (the same as standard dechlorinators for chlorine only). Usually, a higher dose is recommended for chloramines - this is to make sure the chlorine part is split from the chloramines and neutralized - however, this releases the ammonia part, so the chloramine is not fully dealt with. An example of the manufacturers' awareness of this, is shown by the fact that API recommend Ammo-Lock in conjunction with Stress Coat, if you need to deal with ammonia."

Bolded is the part i was talking about, if it just has sodium thiosulfate it will do nothing for Chloramines at the recommended dose, which is the amount i was using, the bottle says nothing about using More to remove chloramines.I switched to Prime because it seems to be the most widely recommended product for Removing Chlorine,Chloramines,Ammonia and will even neutralize excess nitrate and nitrite.A number of hobbyist on here told me to use prime.

[confuted]

Sigh. Sorry for feeding the troll, but I don't want people reading this thread to get false information.

Sodium thiosulfate: Na2S2O3
Chloramine: NH2Cl
Ammonia: NH3
Water: H2O

For those who know a little chemistry:
2Na2S2O3 + NH2Cl + 2H2O ==> Na2S4O6 + NH4OH + NaOH + NaCl

For those who know a little less chemistry:
Two sodium thiosulfate molecules react with one chloramine molecule in water to form a sodium tetrathionate molecule, aqueous ammonia, sodium hydroxide (a base), and table salt.

For those who don't care about the chemistry:
Sodium thiosulfate, like that in most cheap dechlorinators, neutralizes the chlorine portion of chloramine, but leaves behind some ammonia in its wake. The concentration of chloramine in your water is usually 1-5ppm of chloramine, which works out to ~1.8ppm ammonia at the high end, or ~0.36ppm at the low end. Change 50% of the water, and this is diluted to 0.9ppm ammonia at the high end or 0.18ppm at the low end. Maybe that's a problem, or maybe it isn't, but a good biological filter and some plants should deal with it before it becomes an issue.

[vance71975]

Originally Posted by confuted

Sigh. Sorry for feeding the troll, but I don't want people reading this thread to get false information.

Sodium thiosulfate: Na2S2O3
Chloramine: NH2Cl
Ammonia: NH3
Water: H2O

For those who know a little chemistry:
2Na2S2O3 + NH2Cl + 2H2O ==> Na2S4O6 + NH4OH + NaOH + NaCl

For those who know a little less chemistry:
Two sodium thiosulfate molecules react with one chloramine molecule in water to form a sodium tetrathionate molecule, aqueous ammonia, sodium hydroxide (a base), and table salt.

For those who don't care about the chemistry:
Sodium thiosulfate, like that in most cheap dechlorinators, neutralizes the chlorine portion of chloramine, but leaves behind some ammonia in its wake. The concentration of chloramine in your water is usually 1-5ppm of chloramine, which works out to ~1.8ppm ammonia at the high end, or ~0.36ppm at the low end. Change 50% of the water, and this is diluted to 0.9ppm ammonia at the high end or 0.18ppm at the low end. Maybe that's a problem, or maybe it isn't, but a good biological filter and some plants should deal with it before it becomes an issue.

Hmmm When i argue in support of Chlor-out, im presented with info that says Prime is better.See this thread http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/sh...questions.html
When i follow the Info provided and Change my thinking to using a product that im told is better im insulated and called a troll. God i love the Double Standards on these forums.

So what your basically saying is that the manufactures of these products have no clue what they are talking about when they recommended a higher dose of their product to deal with Chloramines? So your telling us the Chemist who design and test these products are morons and cant be trusted if they say to use a higher dose?

Frankly if anyone is a "troll" Here its you your attitude has been Insulting and Assumptive since your very first post.