Rams: cant get rid of the ick

[newshound]

I didn't read most of your post cause ick threads are a dime a dozen.
but just because the fish is flashing (rubbing against the bottom) doesn't mean that it has ick.
I am not saying that you don't have it but if the water conditions are poor the fish gills could be burning.

[Justbeginningfish]

there are white spots, and it is resistant to treatment.

water parameters are
ammonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate 15
ph 6.8
gh 50-60
kh 40
temp is 87 raising to 90 to see if it helps

daily water change of 25 to 30%, i have been mixing half dechlorinated tap water and half water from the big tank as my gold ram is thriving and really growing in the big tank. They have two coconut shell caves and a clump of hornwort in the middle of the tank to let them have some space and territory, and the coconut shells help to add some tannins and soften the water a bit

metrinidazole is the same med as flagyl in humans/dogs, it is used for fungal and parasitic infections but has some sort of secondary bacterialcidal action as well. it is used both topically and internally and i was wondering if soaking some frozen food in it would help fight the bugs from another angle since they feed off the fish.

[@marko@]

it wouldnt. ich probably wouldnt care. while in the water column, they dont care about whats in the fish. when they are on the fish, the amount of it you could get in the fish, would be enough to do it damage alone (i think, never tried) so it wouldnt hurt. as long as the fish arent getting worse, it will go away eventually.

[Justbeginningfish]

Originally Posted by @marko@

it wouldnt. ich probably wouldnt care. while in the water column, they dont care about whats in the fish. when they are on the fish, the amount of it you could get in the fish, would be enough to do it damage alone (i think, never tried) so it wouldnt hurt. as long as the fish arent getting worse, it will go away eventually.

My little female looks pitiful right now, clamped fins, not eating and her color has faded a lot plus the male has started bullying her, in the morning i will look into a tank divider if need be

Im heating water right now to do a large water change, Im thinking maybe the meds are getting to her since she showed no symptoms until i started them

[lauraleellbp]

Whoa temps of 90 are way too high! I treat ich at 82. I wouldn't go over 86, personally- IMO 86+ is the range you start losing tropical fish... rams are better acclimated to higher temps, but IMO 90 is quite extreme.

You shouldn't alter your temps more than a degree or at most 2 degrees per day. Fast temperature changes are one of the quickest fish killers.

If there's any way to separate the rams tonight, I'd do it. If she's already looking that poorly then the male's bullying may be all it takes to push her over the edge.

I'd also be very cautious about mixing meds- there's no way of knowing till too late if the meds are contraindicated!

[Adhlc]

Wherever you got the Metronidazole(sp?) go back and get some Focus by Seachem, combine the two as directed, in some Garlic Gaurd with some frozen food. and feed them a few times a day to the rams. This combination has worked wonders for me in the past.

Hope that helps!

[Justbeginningfish]

Thanks for all the advice, I have a a rough couple of weeks with the fish, i did figure out the Cories were killed by the powerhead, they sleep up there and I found the remaining one stuck one afternoon, So i believe the internal bleeding was like the hickey from hell, the gourami went from fine to nasty in no time flat despite meds and obsessive water changes so I dont think I could have done anything else for him, but now with these two rams not getting better Im feeling like a really bad fishmom.

I emailed seachem and they said the combo should be fine as long as nothing was overdosed. I already have the focus

I can't separate them tonight or I will be short a heater.
I cant run to wallyworld either since the hubby is out of town and the kiddo is asleep. I've been digging around for a small plastic basket of some sort to suction cup in the tank...Im sure I have one somewhere but dont ask me where? lol

about the temp, I had it at 86.5 and no signs of improvement, was keeping the rams at 82 before the outbreak, and took three days to slowly raise it to the treatment temps.
since the problem was getting no better at 86, I was advised to raise it a few more degrees.

Due to their warm soft acidic water nature I was assuming they would tolerate more heat easier than more salt.
Right now it is just over 87, I will leave it be.

I did a 4 gallon water change, adding the water back in slowly by dripping it at the rate of about 1.5 gallon an hour. I think I may also run carbon in the filter tomorow because I really think it is the Rid ick that is stressing her out,

then I will go back to the salt and heat method and add a UV sterilizer.

[lnb]

Your doing too much in a very short period of time. Just continue with the rid-ick or whatever you're doing at the moment. If you add charcoal you will negate all the meds in the tank. This is how you create resistance in bugs!

Did you put an air stone in the tank??? Turn off the lights and keep them off. This will calm them down.

I know you're trying to do the right thing but you're throwing in the kitchen sink without really knowing what you are treating. Give your present treatment a chance.

Patience!

[Justbeginningfish]

update:things are better!
I ended up running the carbon because I really felt it was the formalin in the Rid ick that was doing her in. I also made aa booboo that seemed to have actually help, I went to turn the heater down a tiny bit but must have bumped it the wrong way in the process because yesterday morning the tank temp was 92! So I lowered the temp over 14 hours back to to 87 and they seem just fine. I also got another heater and removed the male to my 6 gallon and am watching both closely. So far no more spots have appeared on either one and now that she is able to eat and not hide all the time her color and energy is returning.

I have ordered a Uv sterilizer from dr. fosters as I think it will be a good thing to have on hand for issues like this and the fungus/bacteria that attacked my gourami so quickly.

Now I am just keeping my fingers crossed that things will keep improving and I can go back to having an easier time of fishkeeping!

[@marko@]

5 degrees in 14 hours!!! that is a lot. however i am glad to hear that your fish are recovering.

[lnb]

[lauraleellbp]

You're not a bad fishmom by any means- you're doing everything you know to do, and that's all any of us can ever do anyways (if that sentence just made any sense at all )

Anyways- GL and keep us posted!

[Justbeginningfish]

They are still doing well, still no spots! I am just glad I didnt accidentally cook them!
I barely nudged the heater to turn it back down, it is old and not the best...i will be replacing it as it apparently has on, warm and cook the fishies :0

[lauraleellbp]

That heater might have been what brought on the ich in the first place then; there's nothing like inconsistent temps to weaken fish and make them more susceptible to parasites and diseases. Ich is definitely more prevalent in the spring, and I suspect it's because of the temp fluctuations that just come naturally with the season.

[@marko@]

yep, there are three steps to provide good ich prevention:
-good heating
-some cooling
-healthy diet


the funny thing is that ich is much more of a problem in tanks then nature. in nature when a fish gets ich, it gets only a few spots and as they fall the fish keeps swimming and doesnt get reinfected. the problem in tanks is the same fish gets hurt over and over and over by more and more and more ich. but, in nature ich is a pretty successful parasite as it does minimal damage to the host in most cases.