New method(?) to start up an algae free tank without any water changes or work(really

[BentZero]

So in order to get my NPK to the right level do I just dose a 5g bucket to the manufacturers specs and pour in as much water as needed? I'm using SMS as substrate.

[Brian A]

Tom,
How did you like Indiana? We just got hit with a cold spell, looks like you missed it. I hope you were able to experience some Hoosier hospitality!

[plantbrain]

I'm from Indiana, brother in law shot and killed himself. It was not a fun trip.
Sad. He had a 125 Gallon reef tank I got him into that had to be broken down.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Brian A]

Oh, my!! I am so sorry to hear that. My prayers go out to you, your sister and family.

[A Hill]

Tom, I'm surprised sooo many people never realized this. I had thought this was "common" knowledge to many people, that HC and such tanks are easy to start "dry" its done a LOT in Asia, MM's friend has done it and so did a few people at Killies.com This was on big 100g+ tanks.

You brought up an excellent point on the root systems though, never thought of that. I would assume the crypts would die off like normal... I'm going to be rescaping my 55g soon and might try doing this with the crypts beforehand and then finishing scaping it.

I actually had planned on growing HC/DHG in a terrarium tank with thin glass over the summer like this but just didn't get to it since I wasn't home much.

Originally Posted by fishscale

I'll get some AS too. Also, is dwarf hairgrass a true aquatic plant, or will it work emmersed as well?

This has been one of the most common ways to "farm" hairgrass ever more or less, so yeah it works amazingly well.

Originally Posted by plantbrain

I'll have one ready to fill and another about 3 weeks behind, all HC.
I also have a neat antique 10X10 x3" metaframe steel framed tank, well suited for this or another similar terriarum or emergent tank for sale as well.

How would that plant ship to RI? I have a nano tank thats like that (nothing in it) And if the price isn't bad would love to pick up another awesome tank like that. PM me?

Originally Posted by plantbrain

I do have a question.
Once this tank is filled and the plants look nice etc, can I take a pic and call that a scape?

I mean it has water etc, and it's only a temporary set up, like all nice scapes before to some degree, then tear it down and start another?

This basically removes all the aquarist aspects from the scaping competitions and allows you to it terrestrially and only add water/fish at the last minute.

Is this fair?

The way things are often done and prepared for open houses, pics etc, I'd have to say it is fair.

So even if you brand new/stink etc at aquarium keeping, but can grow weeds in a dry tank, you could potentially win and beat well experienced aquarist with high tech stuff.

Oh that would hurt...........

Regards,
Tom Barr

Tom, that is allowed in the AGA scaping competitions. There was one tank I remember specifically that did almost the same thing, but it was a 100% WC every day. It was that nano cube where the back left corner had the plants and it was a 1/4 circle from the corner with the white sand in the rest of it. ADA style tank.

So yea people are already doing this in competitions to some degree, not as far as you said it though.

So here comes the newest trend thanks to a well known person posting it

Nice topic,
-Andrew

[plantbrain]

Well, very little I've suggested over many years have been my own ideas, just a collection of other folk's ideas that I've put together and suggested work well.


You can take an idea and turn it on it's head and use it to make your life easier.
Many hobbyists are too stubborn though and set in their ways. I'm always after a lazier way

The idea itself is not new, just using the method to "start" a tank.
Which makes logical sense and folks slap themselves on the head(mostly my own self for all the times I could have done this in the past and never said anything, but I'm not that way)

Waterless cycling of a planted tank I guess we could call it.
"Waterless pre rooting method"?
WPRM?

I suppose.
I'm not big on marketing names etc.





Regards,
Tom Barr

[g8wayg8r]

I mentioned this to an experienced MASI member and he told me that this was the way all of the old timers would start a planted tank. Problem is that the method got lost somewhere along the line so bringing this up again in a detailed discussion is a great wakeup. If the weather wasn't on it's way to freezing in a month or so, I'd give it a try once I figure out where to put the tank after the plants get going. Perhaps that's why it lost favor with some.

[plantbrain]

Originally Posted by g8wayg8r

I mentioned this to an experienced MASI member and he told me that this was the way all of the old timers would start a planted tank. Problem is that the method got lost somewhere along the line so bringing this up again in a detailed discussion is a great wakeup. If the weather wasn't on it's way to freezing in a month or so, I'd give it a try once I figure out where to put the tank after the plants get going. Perhaps that's why it lost favor with some.

I hear many old codgers claim they invented the wheel. I often ask how they manged to come up with it and their justifications for it. The trail often gets very murky then and they claim senililty Unless you do something about the idea, share it, etc..........it's worthless.

I have a reference for DIY CO2 used for planted tanks and the date?

1962.

That's documented. It did not become popular for nearly 35 years. The person published in an aquarium magazine back then. The web reaches a lot more folks today. The method for producing CO2 was invented perhaps 5000 years ago and was invented in several cultures(wine/alcohol).

I've been in the hobby over 33 years myself, so........I'm leary someone has not done this method before. And given the rather obvious ease, reduced labor, no algae and cost since the plants will grow out very well without having to buy a lot, seems the method would sell itself.

Why do good ideas fall through the cracks?
Perhaps senility?

I have my own bouts with that, hehe.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Yoshi]

Tom, this is an excellent thread. There are probably countless numbers of people who would be otherwise unexposed to this idea if they didn't stumble on it. You've inspired me to start a new tank the "Dry Method."

[BentZero]

Yeah, this definitely wants me to start two tanks. I'm starting one the wet method b/c I already have plants on the way. BTW, would you suggest this method if one was planning on going the low-tech route?

[plantbrain]

Well, as more folks get involved in CO2, easier methods to grow plants, rediscovering non CO2 methods, still yet new methods in marine macro algae yet to be discovered...........the more chances things have to grow, evolve and become better suited for the hobby.

Given the notion that many folks like HC, Gloss, Crypts, Hair grass, and dozen or so others...........this method can certainly help a lot.

So folks try it, they like it, see it's easy, then after thigns are well grown in, crank the CO2, ferts etc, and away they go.

Take a pic, submit to contest and we will have many many nice tank examples.
The other thing you might consider:

After filling the tank, getting a nice pic etc, tear it down and redo the scape/Rocks etc. Each tear down would only take about 4-6 weeks to fill in a again. Especially if you have a lot of plants after the first few runs.

I'd say one could do 6 nice rock low foreground scapes per year with this method and with flawless algae issues, very little water changes obviously, low cost, and the tanks do look nice as terrariums while you wait.

The tank would look old and well established even though it's only had water for 2 weeks and fish for several days.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[RoseHawke]

Hmmm. You, know, that is a poser. Is it "cheating?" or is it merely different "husbandry practices?" If one really wants to split hairs, an aquascape could be defined as merely an underwater landscape, although I seem to remember something about the aquascape having to have a minimum amount of time that it's been up and running (at least per AGA rules.) I don't know for sure, this is only something I ran across at some point while browsing the AGA site and I am admittedly subject to CRS (and I don't mean shrimp!)

It would really only be an edge in a certain type of landscape (Iwagumi, most like) since so many aquatic plants, as you pointed out, have markedly different emersed/immersed forms.

[plantbrain]

Yes, Cindy,

Therein lies the issue and how long and at what stage can a a scape be judged fairly?

Is a week any more fair than a month?

Is a fleeting "moment" the same as permanence even if that permanence is merely a facade? Humm.........is a week any different than a month? 6 months different than a month?

We can also make a rock or mostly open layout by growing it in, adding some fish a few days later and taking some pics.

I would actually not even need to be an aquarist at all, just a gardener "terrariumist". I could do daily water changes to add CO2 etc for several days, add some fish. "Click". Then show everyone or enter a contest.

Is the art of such scape beyond the hobby for such judging contest?
I wonder. Is a single species for a mere picture ideal better than a real community for a tank that the aquarists, not the judges, truly and really desire?

Are contest less a judge of aquarist and fish keeping, and more on gardening solely? I see few fish, then only a single species perhaps, not what many aquarist really would like unless they where breeding etc. Our assumptions can play tricks on us. What is it that we are judging? How would anyone know if my iwagumi was set up yesterday or 5 years ago? How much care I put into my fish and their behavior etc?

Am I someone who can maintain a tank for many years, or someone who can grow it in for a few weeks, trim and take good pictures?

These are less skills at keeping fish and aquariums, and more the domain of gardening.

What is the hobby of aquariums and plants?
How can things be judged without knowing what that goal is which is truly different for each person?

Should it go down that path to gardening solely, or more towards fish communities and the actual long term submersed hobby?
Which are really the primary focus?

This method is meant to grow plants in well and get a good start, but it raises other questions as to the length of time needed to call it an aquarium and not a flooded terrarium.

Does a tank have to look like the photographed state for week?
A month?
A year?

That's yet another question.


Regards,
Tom Barr

[A Hill]

Originally Posted by plantbrain

Well, very little I've suggested over many years have been my own ideas, just a collection of other folk's ideas that I've put together and suggested work well.


You can take an idea and turn it on it's head and use it to make your life easier.
Many hobbyists are too stubborn though and set in their ways. I'm always after a lazier way

The idea itself is not new, just using the method to "start" a tank.
Which makes logical sense and folks slap themselves on the head(mostly my own self for all the times I could have done this in the past and never said anything, but I'm not that way)

Waterless cycling of a planted tank I guess we could call it.
"Waterless pre rooting method"?
WPRM?

I suppose.
I'm not big on marketing names etc.





Regards,
Tom Barr

Sounds like a good name to me Tom, and yes I agree. I remember telling someone the other day I have a 55g with good light and no CO2 and am growing plants and a swear they must have fallen off their chair in front of the computer Granted I've been lazy with WC/cleaning etc and there is some algea here and there but I don't really care because soon I'm going to actually do my second scape first 55g scape. I plan on using this method actually. I was somewhat before but never thought of doing this for crypts so I'm going to try it.

The only problem I see is I want a good ammount of thinner mantiza wood. I figure I'll have to put slate or something on the bottom of it? I plan on getting some java ferns from you when I do that and even growing them on the DW without water to see how well they grow Vs. in water. I'll probably have a ultrasonic mister plumbed in the tank to keep it very humid.

Then just fill her up and add inverts, then a month later maybe add some smaller fish and viola!

As for the Contests, I think most of the entries that I like are the balance of a nice aquascape with a fish or group of inhabitants that adds to this. You can also just plant a tank for an aquascape. The plants should look fine if you have them healthy before hand. I remember Steve rushed his original BCK so he could get some pictures in, but he wasn't trying to cheat to win, he wanted to support the AGA competition

Why not start a moral debate while we're at it

I wouldn't worry too much about it taking over Tom because most people are coming from tanks filled with water and adding plants opposed to people with planted vivs who want to add water as you said above somewhere. PLUS it's not like you've made up a new method, you've just tried to get more people to realize it's potential. This has been around for as long as I can remember, since I've gotten into the hobby at least. Just not common and popular because most people want to fill their tank up ASAP

I think the aquascaper, and the planted tank hobbiest are two different people in many cases, or at least have two different tanks For example Steven Chong he was all about scapes opposed to community of fishes and most of his scapes where only up for 6 months tops (witch was a old tank to him)

Also many people go thru stages of fishkeeping and one of them is aquascaping. yeah, we in general try to make our tanks good looking, but a good ammount of people want more than just a good looking scape IMO They want a good looking fish tank but I have no idea where I'm going so I'll stop lol..

-Andrew

[plantbrain]

There are plenty of examples of non CO2 tanks doing great, with willfull neglect

Are they nice HC lawns, and Erio sectacum?
Probably not.

But you can do the art very well, it just takes longer and things grow slower, I'd suggest that the scapers that do well without CO2 possess more skill as gardeners and aquarist.

If you can do both methods then you are even better.

I have suggested folks try both methods for many years.
Why?

To bridge the gaps, see the difference between each method and then be able to explain why each methods works.

Same deal here, folks might end up liking it and start raising Crypts emergent as a hobby

Regards,
Tom Barr