New method(?) to start up an algae free tank without any water changes or work(really

[plantbrain]

Just remember it takes about 1-2 weeks at least for the roots to get established for many of these species.

They need enough moisture, nutrients and water to make it until then.
Once the roots establish, the weed will take off and grow easily and rapidly.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Robert H]

I find this ironic because a few months ago several people contended emersed grown HC was more difficult to grow out submersed, and people shouldn't buy potted HC for that reason. This is another example showing that line of reasoning is bunk.

I already do this with HC and H. micranthemoides, but you can still have algae in an inch of water or even just a "wet" substrate. I have had both hair algae and green dust algae on wet gravel. I mist the plants with water mixed with NPK and trace, (Rex Grigg dry ferts) in a very diluted solution.

If you want to carpet the bottom of your tank, I can see doing this, but otherwise what is the point?

[aquanut415]

the potted HC rooted in rockwool does not transition to submerged culture well at all.

[plantbrain]

Originally Posted by Robert H

I find this ironic because a few months ago several people contended emersed grown HC was more difficult to grow out submersed, and people shouldn't buy potted HC for that reason. This is another example showing that line of reasoning is bunk.

I already do this with HC and H. micranthemoides, but you can still have algae in an inch of water or even just a "wet" substrate. I have had both hair algae and green dust algae on wet gravel. I mist the plants with water mixed with NPK and trace, (Rex Grigg dry ferts) in a very diluted solution.

If you want to carpet the bottom of your tank, I can see doing this, but otherwise what is the point?

Many folks want a small part or a larger part of their tank with such carpeting plants, getting a tank to start right packed without any foreground plants/space etc is easy, but does not appeal to many scapes.

The point is to start the scape off nicely, whether you have a very open low plant biomass design such as the iwugami rock and HC, gloss, hairgrass, U grammifolia, Erio, Dwarf clover etc etc type set ups, which if you have not noticed, are quite popular and very common these days, especially on nano tanks, but this also works fine on larger 50-100 gallon tanks ands reduces the work for this break in period.

Killing algae is quite easy in emergent tanks however.
Blackouts are pretty effective.
EM sprays are good as well for BGA
Temp flooding with H2O2, Excel etc at fairly dilute concentrations works well also. Or plain chlorinated tap as well.

You can also allow the water level to decline and mist the plants a little , but the algae will die back some, then you can hit it.

You can do a simple combo also, flood the tank some, add Excel etc, blackout for 3 days of this, then drain.

Copper also works if you keep it at 0.2ppm and spray in on, wait 5 min or so, then flood to rinse. Another method is to flood with low pH(4.5-5) water for 30 min. This is very good (copper) for Crypts.

I also have ulterior motives several steps ahead.
This also shows that NH4, not NO3 is the cause for algae and CO2 is only part of the issue(as varying CO2 can reduce the NH4 uptake greatly leaving enough NH4 behind for algae spores)

If you do this method without any NH4 source, you get very little algae also.
This takes out the CO2 part out in some ways and isolates the NH4. Adding non limiting CO2 also does this for submersed culture.
I try and look at several things, not just one or what the general dogma may suggest.


Regards,
Tom Barr

[Brian A]

Would adding some extra CO2 to this closed environment help growth in any way? Say adding a yeast DIY bottle with an airline going into the tank.

[aquanut415]

yes it would flash.. helps a lot.

[Madfish]

I just started a tank this way with HC. Im looking forward to seeing it when its done. Thanks for telling some of us that have never tryed it that way.

[plantbrain]

I'll have some pics up in a few days.
Start to finish type etc.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[eon17]

what about babytears?

[fishscale]

baby tears is a common (often confused) name for either HC or HM. I have seen both labeled as such in different stores.

[crazy loaches]

Thanks for sharing this concept with us Tom. I happen to be starting up a tank very soon myself, but I am unsure if this is the best way for my tank. I am a bit confused though, I assume this is best implemented when purchasing new plants that are already grown immersed from the grower? I mean, most my plants will be mature plants from my previous tanks, and most are fairly tall... things like large crinum (all 3 common varieties), crypt spiralis & balansae, etc. many of my plants wont be in the soil either so I know they wouldnt work, java fern, bolbitis, mosses, but of course those can be added later, so long as have a good idea of were all the driftwood will go (lots of manzanita that I'm not sure would stay put unless the tanks full of water). I am going to try marsilia quadrifolia as a groundcover, so that would work well with the method, and blyxa japonica and possibly dwarf sag too but not sure about it. But overall I am guessing only a few of my plants would work with this method... plus I am using pool filter sand so that would not be ideal I assume. What do you think? maybe it would be worth it just for the marsilia to give it a good chance to root.

[plantbrain]

I took HC, Utric, Erio and took them from submersed state to this method with issue.

Just get a decent seal on the top to prevent the plants from drying out the first few days.

It needs to be humid.

Some folks in the past have used vapor barriers(just clear plastic) right above the plants and left the rest of the tank open.

On larger tanks, this might work better. Or if you have a complex hardscape, and just a limited area for the plants, you can seal off just a smaller area for the pre grow in.

Misting the plants with a weak DIY nutrient solution and DI water change help the first week or so I suppose. You do not have any nutrient sources in the sediment, so account for that.

ADA As is pretty good unless you really want to do a soil sand mixture etc for less $.

I'm not sure Blyxa would do well, Sag's will go emergent growth forms also.

This method is namely for those plants that are not easy to get established, HC, Gloss, Utric's, clover, hair grass etc.
The other plants grow in fast and have little issue.

Riccia, Sag's, Ferns, moss, stems, etc.........

Since most tank layouts have some foreground cover, doing this helps start the tank's sediment as well.

You can also cycle the filter with mulm from another tank or start it running
on the other tank if available. If not, take the filter and place in/out in a small bucket and add NH3 to do fishless and tankless cycling. After 3-4 weeks running at rich NH3 levels in the bucket, the filter ought to be some what cycled. Adding a pinch of soil from outside to the bucket helps start things off well too. Why run a filter in the tank itself(dealing with algae if the lights are added, and doing large water changes to remove the NO3 leftovers, or NO2 etc) if someone does FC? Do it in a small bucket.

Another common sense brain slapper

Regards,
Tom Barr




Regards,
Tom Barr

[clddleopard]

Originally Posted by plantbrain

Reminds me of Atlas, pushing the massive rock up the hill by hand for all eternity .........instead of getting a rope and a pulley with a counter weight.
Seems Atlas could had used some of Archimedes and Euclid's talent

Now I use to use buckets myself, I use to test a lot, I use place a lot of stuff in my way needlessly..........But I try to not do the same mistakes again and again.

Regards,
Tom Barr

Atlas held the world on his shoulders. Sisyphus pushed the rock up the hill. I'm a crap aquatic gardener, so I'll chime in on what I do know... literature!

[plantbrain]

Originally Posted by clddleopard

Atlas held the world on his shoulders. Sisyphus pushed the rock up the hill. I'm a crap aquatic gardener, so I'll chime in on what I do know... literature!

I knew it was one of them silly Greek fellers the Gods had it for.
Thanks, now I'll not make that mistake again either Been awhile since I read Greek and Latin. I do remember being sick of reading about Caesar in Gaul and remember Oedipus quite well. Took forever to read.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[plantbrain]

FYI, this method will not cure folk's algae issues once you fill the tank up............

No dry method will........

It can help grow in a lot of plants for the larger % foregrund pklant species easily and get them going/well rooted.

If you cannot grow them with this method after you flood the tank, then it's not the method's, it's still your own fault, most likely with CO2(for HC and many of the other species).

The plants can clearly grow with out any nutrients added to the water column, because they grow just fine in air and wet soil.

The only difference we find is that once you flood the tank, gas exchange issues with the leaves(not the roots, they are saturated already and have been all along), in other words, CO2.

I used this method to illustrate how to isolate a CO2 issue as well.

That's the only difference with flooded vs non flood plants if you have a super lean water column and nutrient rich sediment.






Note, these tanks are just sitting outside in the shade. ADA AS,. just enough water to flood the sediment up to the lowest sediment level, just use a glass lid etc. VERY simple. The other two got sold.
I have another that's filling it decently and I'll get a pic sometime soon.






Regards,
Tom Barr