New method(?) to start up an algae free tank without any water changes or work(really

[plantbrain]

Originally Posted by RoseHawke

Tom, I think the reason more people don't do this is because most people come at planted tanks from a fishkeeping background and not the other way around. They're just used to keeping a tank full of water for the inhabitants. They're used to thinking of it as an aquarium, a tank full of water. People coming at it from a vivarium/terrarium background would probably come from the other direction as it seems more "normal" to them to start out mostly dry and then fill the sucker up with water. I want to do this, but I'll have to find somewhere to move the fish to first. So far I have resisted "MTS" , well, mostly anyway. I've managed to keep it to a 55 and a 10, but if I do this all the fishies will have to live somewhere else for a while.

I think you are correct, but we have plenty of emergent growth folks as well in the hobby. I'm one of them too

I just wonder why it did not dawn on me or someone else a long long time ago. I'm a bit ashamed of my own self

Fortunately, I found several good solutions to MTS.

1.Do aquariums for other folks.
2. The tanks you have, make them top of the line in design and placement in the house.
3. Plan, plan and plan. Stick to the plan and goals set.
4. Large garbage cans make good fish holding containers for awhile while you work on the main tanks.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[plantbrain]

Originally Posted by Daniel*Swords

Great suggestion, Tom!

However, if you have blue-green algae (ok, it's a cyanobacteria) in the house, it's easy to get the new tank contaminated. I've BGA growing here and there in my emergent swordplant pots. Any suggestions how to get rid of it?

Not all sags seem to do so well emersed: the dwarf sag (often sold as S. teres, though seemingly S. demersa) hasn't grown well emersed for me.

BGA?
Muhahaha!

Easy, 3 day blackout.
Or, dissolve a EM tablet in a 500ml solution and spray it or pour the solution, or crumble a pill near the area infested.

You have a solution.

Sag's have quite different emergent forms vs submersed forms, I do not think they would do so well with this method. While swords do this also, they and Crypts are more adaptable.

I recently did this method with Crypt "green gecko" and it works very nicely.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[spypet]

here's a clever idea to help people concerned with misting & humidity in a low water tank;

[Daniel*Swords]

Originally Posted by plantbrain

BGA?
Muhahaha!

Easy, 3 day blackout.

Indeed!
Though, easier said than done when you have house full of swords in pots.
I guess my only hope would be erythromycine as you suggested and I have used it before. It's just that I'd have to use it on everything at once! Oh well, one of these days...

[plantbrain]

You only have to cover the sediment with black trash bags to do the black out, it can be a local area. You can still allow the leaves to poke up. Many folks do not have access to antibiotics outside the USA etc or do not want to use such methods.

Spypet, you need not do that, it's not bad etc, but does not help, simply covering the tank works great and is far cheaper, simpler and works just as well.

No need to make a simple idea more complicated, but I do understand the urge to do so

Regards,
Tom Barr

[RoseHawke]

Originally Posted by plantbrain

". . . No need to make a simple idea more complicated, but I do understand the urge to do so. . .

Ummm, yes, I think this is why so many of us are in love with the technological nightmare that resides under some of our tanks . . . (pointing a finger at myself here .)

[plantbrain]

Using sadomascistic rational for logic is not my cup of tea, however, some seem to think they must do that to get results.

Why suffer in the start?
Why spend a lot and plant a ton of tiny pieces when it can grow in very well and not cost nearly as much? You do not even need a light, just place the tank, sediment and plants with lid outside in the sun. As iwugami styles are increasingly popular these days, this makes their cultivation extremely easy, about like that of "Chia pet". The hardest part is arranging the rocks.

For that style, this method is a shoe in.

Water changes need not be tough either, yet some are still part of the bucket brigade. The High Tech "Hose" method to drain and fill an aquarium has not yet reach some parts of the world the way some talk. Nor automated water changers, nor hard plumbed drain and fill lines, I guess indoor plumbing is something new to some folks? I hate water changes, testing, algae etc as much as anyone else. I'd rather reduce labor, cost and make things simpler, cleaner and more repeatable/successful.

Reminds me of Atlas, pushing the massive rock up the hill by hand for all eternity .........instead of getting a rope and a pulley with a counter weight.
Seems Atlas could had used some of Archimedes and Euclid's talent

Now I use to use buckets myself, I use to test a lot, I use place a lot of stuff in my way needlessly..........But I try to not do the same mistakes again and again.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[zergling]

LOL I'm still part of the bucket brigade mainly because I keep on forgetting to get a hose long enough to get to the bathroom and to the tank which is fine, I need the exercise

[Mangala]

Just thought I'd post a thought - if you were to start up a new tank using old gravel (say you have tahitian moon sand like me) you could easily start this up using the old gravel, and you'd not have to do much with nitrates. I say this because last winter, I emptied a bunch of my old gravel into a 5 gallon pail and set it outside on my porch. (7th story in an apartment building) and wouldn't you know it, but come spring the tree seeds are blowing around on the wind and some of them landed in my bucket (which I had forgotten about) and then I noticed there are little plants sprouting out of my gravel! I'm not helping them in any way, but there are definitely tiny trees growing in my bucket outside, taking nutrients from old fish poo and getting watered by the Seattle rain.

I guess this post has only to add an additional note to why you want to put a cover on your tank when you put it outside in the sun.

I like this idea, and maybe if I were thinking about it more would have come up with it on my own. I've been watching these trees grow for a while now...

Thanks Tom for starting some buzz.

[aquanut415]

Originally Posted by plantbrain

Since it's not new, why have not more folks described it and come forth with the idea then?

I mean, if you think about it, why wouldn't you do things this way?

Hummm...........

Growing plants emergent for horticulture is hardly new, but why the insistence on growing and starting a new tank submersed? with all the issues that surround starting a new planted tank?

Why hasn't ADA suggested it as well?
Or someone else? It's a good idea and one that would sell itself.

the only problem i have with this way of starting a tank is that not all plants seem to convert over to submerged form from emersed as easily. some plants look absolutely nothing alike when grown emersed vs submerged and the time it takes for the plants to convert, if they will do so at all is significant.

for me, this is mainly a way to fill in the foreground with some of the pickier plants (HC, Utricularia... actually those are the only 2)

just as an example, grow out some downoi emersed and try and get it to convert back to submerged growth. it takes A LOT of time, more than a few weeks. additionally, the emersed form of downoi looks nothing like the submerged form, they have altogether different growth habits which will make the use of the plant even more challenging in the aquascape.

i think its a useful practice, but i only see its value for a few of the plants we use, and for some plants its probably only making more/new challenges.

[plantbrain]

Originally Posted by aquanut415

the only problem i have with this way of starting a tank is that not all plants seem to convert over to submerged form from emersed as easily. some plants look absolutely nothing alike when grown emersed vs submerged and the time it takes for the plants to convert, if they will do so at all is significant.

for me, this is mainly a way to fill in the foreground with some of the pickier plants (HC, Utricularia... actually those are the only 2)

just as an example, grow out some downoi emersed and try and get it to convert back to submerged growth. it takes A LOT of time, more than a few weeks. additionally, the emersed form of downoi looks nothing like the submerged form, they have altogether different growth habits which will make the use of the plant even more challenging in the aquascape.

i think its a useful practice, but i only see its value for a few of the plants we use, and for some plants its probably only making more/new challenges.

Yes, I agree.
However, once the plants have established root systems, they are much easier to convert in the tank.

Why?
Less resources required since the roots are already present, established enzymatic and biochemical pathways for nutrients(not really nearly as present in the leaves since they are in a nutrient free zone other than CO2, so the plant will allocate them to the root zones and slowly transition as needed once submersion occurs) and no transplant shock.

Crypts, most foreground plants etc, Anubias, quite a few weeds.

But the back ground stem plants, Rotolas, Vals etc, these had little transplant shock issue and grow fast anyway.

For Downoi, yes, likely not a good candidate.
But it's pretty easy to grow and not hard to plant etc.
Hummm......I wonder if it would grow well at the lab outdoors in the vaults?
Erios do well with this method though.

While some will go through changes in the transition, they often come in that way to start with(hydroponically grown), and we can do a couple of prunings to remove the older growth, no big deal I think.

I have a few Erios now(not E. setaceum etc, E cinerum) since I have no other home for them as of yet. It's also a nice method for over flow plants you do not want to get rid of or want to grow out a bit. I know Jim (fearless leader) in the club did this a lot with HC till the club was saturated with the weed
You just need a tank, lid and some sediment, soil or ADA As etc, sunlight works fine.

Still, given the popularity of the iwugami style layouts and nano tanks etc, this is a no brainer method all the way around. Many complain about getting the rug established prior and spend a lot effort to do so.

Even if there's only say 20% in the foregound you want to plant, letting it do so via this method ensures good establishment, then you pack the rest of the tank with stems, Vals etc or downoi.

You and I also might not have as much trouble growing a lot of plants, but others do and neither of us like the tank maintenance issues if we can avoid them. *I see no reason to torture myself.

From the high tech-er to the non CO2 low tech-er, it's a good method all the way around and can be applied widely for many applications.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[territhemayor]

Can we see some pics? I just wanna see how the tank turned out.

Thanks, intersting, if only I knew this yesterday WHEN I SET UP ANOTHER TANK

[mpodolan]

Hopefully this isn't hijacking this thread, but after reading through this, I decided to try this to help propagate HC for the foreground for my 50 gallon. My tank is already filled and has been running for about a month or so, so I decided to simply take some of the substrate (Schulz aquasoil) out from the foreground where I had been attempting to grow some HC and put it in a pan, plant the HC, and place a 36watt light above it. I put some of the tank water, which I fertilize using EI method, in the pan to make the substrate moist. I figure that if I can get the HC to form a thick mat, I can transfer it, along with the substrate enmeshed in the roots, to the foreground. Do you guys think this will work? Also, how much fertilizer should I add to the water/substrate (I dose using dry ferts)? any input would be appreciated.

[plantbrain]

I do not suggest submersion of the leaves at all, just the sediment/roots etc.
ADA As works very well.

Sediment such as clay wetland soil worked very well too.
Capillary action, the sediments themselves, the moisture from placing a glass semi sealed lid on there etc allows plenty of moisture.

So you may go very low tech and cheap here if you wish, ADA As is certainly not required, however a nutrient rich sediment is.

Since there is no fish or water column, you can dose very rich, most hydroponic solution concentrations work fine. They are quite rich.

See here for standard "Hoagland's solution":

http://www.tre.umn.edu/teaching/Nurs...cture_2003.htm

http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plant.../msg01106.html

We have a long ways to go before we see K+ blocking Ca or NO3 melting any plant............

Some seem to think so however.
It's not the same as leaf exposure, but the concentrations inside the plant and the leaves as well as the root zones are exposed to very high concentrations in such solutions.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[mpodolan]

Thanks for the info, Tom. I'll mix up a solution and try it. i didn't submerge any of the leaves, just added enough water to make the substrate wet. I'm looking forward to experimenting with this method!