Yamato Green

[kkentert]

Originally Posted by wood

kkentert- I am not trying to be rude to you or anything, but please stop giving out false information. If you don't know what you are talking about then please don't give bad advice. There are a lot of people just starting the aquascaping hobby that read these posts in order to learn. If they think that fish food is a good source of phosphate then they will be asking a million questions about planaria, disease, snails, fish death, etc. Once again, I am not a mean person trying to make you feel bad. I just think its not proper to give false advice, thats all.

I appreciate the civil tone, and guidance (and no- I'm not being sarcastic) I was told years ago about the phosphates being present from fish food, and my plants have always done relatively well, so I never questioned it. The when I gt Yamato green, their website said the same thing that I had already heard. That said, my plants have been even better since I swicthed to YG, but maybe they're not doing as well as they COULD be with more Phosphates. i apologize for any misinformation, it was what i had come to believe from some other "misguided" people. I'm going to try dosing some and see if thing do even better. Thanks for the info. I'll deff. read up some more! (I still say the YG is great stuff!)

Question- Did fish foods contain more phosphates a couple years ago than they do now? Could my info just be old? or is it flat out wrong?

[Rex Grigg]

You can call feces gold. That doesn't make them gold.

Federal and State laws are very specific about what can and can not be called fertilizers. Seachem follows the law and calls Flourish a supplement. Unless you have specific amounts of NPK in it then it can't be called a fertilizer. I have explained that to you several times kkentert.

Also you have never tried dosing real ferts. You speak from an EXTREMELY limited knowledge base. And those of us who have been around for a while have heard the old "secret ingredient" spiel many times. And yet those of us who don't use these "magic products" seem to grow buckets of weeds with our basic inexpensive bulk nutrients.

Yamato Green may well work on a low light tank full of slow growing plants for quite some time. But attempting to use it in a high light CO2 injected weed factory will result in failure.

It's kind of funny. What works in "fast" tanks will also work quite well in "slow" tanks. But what works in "slow" tanks doesn't do so well in "fast" tanks

[kkentert]

notice I didn't call it a fert just for you rex - I said it was a supplement - that I cnsider it a fert- but you say it's legally not. I got you covered buddy.

[Rex Grigg]

Originally Posted by kkentert

. I say it IS a very comprehensive fertilizer if you consider a fertilizer a mix of supplents that makes you plants grow like crazy.

See the first line of my first reply to this thread.

Comprehensive fertilizer has a legal meaning under law. It must contain measurable amounts of NPK above the trace level.

Yamato Green has NO P, NO N, and only trace K.

If you want to call it a great trace additive or supplement I have no problems. But you constantly refer to it as a fertilizer and it's not.

[kkentert]

So- they didn't do the study on guppie's waste, but it is still fish waste (processed and expelled food)- but check this outFishPoo
Just some food for though-but it says there is 2.54% Phosphorus. The fact that the guy at YG wrote that on his site also kind of makes me believe it as he has a Doctorate in Microbiology and biochemistry...(plus has worked in aquaculture for 50? years)
I'm not saying what you said is untrue- I'm just doing some more research on my own and thought I'd bring that study to you to check out.
No-I'm sure it could be argued that a few small fish is not ENOUGH for a tank full of plants-
Off to read more!
I'm glad you got the wheels turning...

As for fast and slow tanks- I have 4 WPG, and injected co2 (though I used to run Carbo-Block (HATED it) and I have VERY fast growing plants (almost too fast-it's a pain in the neck)

[Rex Grigg]

And we keep a lot of Oncorhynchus mykiss in our aquariums. A commercial fish farm for Oncorhynchus mykiss has one goal in mind. Growing salable sized Oncorhynchus mykiss as quickly and cheaply as possible.

That study has basically no bearing on what is being discussed.

Many foods made for tropical fish are low in phosphates to prevent algae blooms when people over feed the fish.

[kkentert]

Rex- Here analysis of OSI Freshwater Flakes - Again-I'm not arguing with you- I'm asking what you think-
Crude Protein (min) 35%. Crude Fat (min) 3%. Crude Fiber (max) 3%. Moisture
(max) 9%. Vitamin A (min) 8,000 IUlb Vitamin D3 (min) 800 IUlb Vitamin E
(min) 100 IUlb Choline (min) 500 mglb Ascorbic acid (min) 200 mglb Inositol
(min) 100 mglb Niacin (min) 100 mglb Pantohenic acid (min) 80 mglb
Phosphorous (max) 0.6%

[Rex Grigg]

Note the (max). Also note that the fish will remove some of that.

Not to mention that fish food is more expensive that bulk dry nutrients. And trying to add enough P with fish food is going to lead to ammonia and/or more snails.

Fish food is for fish. Fertilizers are for plants.

[kkentert]

OK- going to run a 6 week experiment-
I'm going to KEEP dosing Yamato green (since I have plenty here still) and i'm going to start ALSO dosing Phosphorus, and see what happens. I'll let everyone know the results. If the results are BETTER than what I'm getting now, I will admit defeat and switch to dry ferts (Yes-the marine will have one) - but like I said- this stuff is awesome - but better is always welcome! (like I said before, i'm not so much concerned about being cheap- just getting results) Rex- wanna tell me how much?

[Rex Grigg]

How much what?

And you can't just start dosing phosphates without having sufficient nitrates.

[kkentert]

Nevermind- I'll look it up. I have sufficient nitrates.

[Rex Grigg]

You want to be careful. You might have enough nitrates right now. But if the plants are short on phosphates and you introduce phosphates into the tank the nitrate levels can zero out in a couple of days. This has happened to many people in the past.

[kkentert]

jebarj90
How's the Yamato doing for your tank?
Curious.

[plantbrain]

Fish waste alone is not "enough" to supply most fully planted tanks for PO4 under optimal growth rates.

Will plants grow?
Sure.

Plants can adapt to whatever they must and PO4 is often limiting so they slow their growth rates way down if PO4 is limiting. When that occurs, the plant uses less CO2, less NO3 and less K+ etc.

Plants downregulate the other nutrients to match the most limiting nutrient.

Now some used this idea about 12-15 years ago with the idea they could limit algae with PO4. That did not work, however, many folks did note their NO3 and CO2 levels went up when the PO4 was driven down.

When we added PO4, the uptake of NO3 increased rapidly, as did the CO2 demand.

Some folks had little issue with 10-15ppm with low light, PO4 limitations, however, many folks did have issues, they blamed PO4 rather than the NO3/CO2 being too low though.

Fish loads vary a great deal in planted tanks, I've some rather packed tanks(3-6inches per gal), and I have fish less tanks. I have predator tanks also and Discus tanks with an adult per 7-10 gal.

No issues with excess N or P, I might cut the KNO3 dosing by 1/2 at most, but the PO4 being higher does not matter and adds a buffer.

I'm much more concerned about removal of NH4 waste, not PO4.

NH4 is extremely toxic, NO3 and PO4 are not relatively(200-15000X less than NH4 for NO3 depending on fish species, PO4 is non toxic over enormous ranges to us and fish).

So I'd rather modify a method to suit moderate build up potential for NO3 and PO4, while minimizing NH4.

This is better for fish, for algae control and is simpler.

KH2PO4 = 22$ for 50lbs, same with KNO3 and the cost of a trace mix varies from about few $ per pound to 70-80$ per 5 liters for commercial mixes.

Note: 50lbs of KNO3/KH2PO4 will last longer than you will.
Your grand kids will be using it.

Now suppose you want to slow down growth?
Chose PO4 limitation?

No, that would be a relatively poor choice.
Light? Yes, this cost less electric, the largest single expense to run a planted tank in most cases.

Less light= less algae, less work, more wiggle room for whatever method you chose.

CO2? Not adding CO2 makes life much simpler, and the tank is much easier to deal with a handle. No water changes there either.

So lazy, less cost, less work, less trimming, less issues withb algae vs PO4 limitation, that is a far better selection for horticulture than the older alternatives folks suggested 10 or more years ago.

Some have renewed this "concept" of PO4 limitation and nnot even bothered to realize it and claiming less CO2 is needed.

Sure, if you are PO4 limited, of course you need less CO2 than if you had a non nutrient limited tanks, that's stuff we knew about over 10 years ago.

Be careful assuming correlation = causation.
You'll think it's one thing, but plants regulate based on what is made available to them.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[mistergreen]

I barely dose PO4.. My tank naturely through all the fish & plant processes provide 2ppm of PO4. I'm sure the substrate has something to do with it too.
I bring it up to 3-4ppm with KH2PO4 but honestly I don't think I need to do that. Nitrate uptake is fine.

But you do need to change the water every week for the health of the fish.