Amano Tanks very low in nutrients - Discussion requested.

[Betowess]

Are you claiming you run full EI dose with AS? Or just a relatively high fert level?

[plantbrain]

Full EI and high light, the max combo.
Have for sometime.




Regards,
Tom Barr

[Badcopnofishtank]

How soon do you start with the full EI dosing with a newly planted amazonia tank?

I have heard that you should wait a week and do at least 2 W/C before starting your ferts.??

BTW Tom- I really like using the EI, it has been a huge help for me, thank you.

[SuRje1976]

Originally Posted by plantbrain

It's inducible using CO2 and with PO4 though.
This is old news, going back ton the APD many years.
Rather high levels of PO4(2-3ppm) with decent CO2.

I might need to wipe glass once every few weeks.
Same deal in a non CO2 tank, even when I add KNO3 and KH2PO4.

Regards,
Tom Barr

Ok - now I'm REALLY confused. I may need to go back and review some past threads, but I thought that one of the primary premises of EI is that you canNOT induce algae with high nutrient levels? AND that high CO2 levels were ideal for preventing algae. Am I reading this wrong, or is it EXACTLY the opposite of what's previously been stated?

[Momotaro]

Ok - now I'm REALLY confused. I may need to go back and review some past threads, but I thought that one of the primary premises of EI is that you canNOT induce algae with high nutrient levels? AND that high CO2 levels were ideal for preventing algae. Am I reading this wrong, or is it EXACTLY the opposite of what's previously been stated?

I kinda thought the same thing as well.

Mike

[plantbrain]

Originally Posted by Badcopnofishtank

How soon do you start with the full EI dosing with a newly planted amazonia tank?

I have heard that you should wait a week and do at least 2 W/C before starting your ferts.??

BTW Tom- I really like using the EI, it has been a huge help for me, thank you.

I do not wait, why should I?
Does that help?
Not that I've seen nor noted.

I've done many tanks thus far using this combo and quickly switched over to it after noting the differences.

I do water changes 2-3x a week in the start up phase, so that means after the 3-4 day

If you folks listen to the details with Amano, he and Jeff Senske also do lots of water changes in the start uphase, 1-2 months and then down to once a week.

We all did this routine independently.

My argument is this: why not stop dosing after you trim plants after the start up phase?

Why not wait a week after a trim?
If you add enough plant biomass from day one and do water changes, there's no issues.

You provide enough nutrients for both the water column and the sediment that way.

Can you do it fairly well without dosing the water column other than traces + K+? Sure.

You can even delete those dosings for the first few months even if you use the lighting correctly and CO2. But will the plants grow in better with dosing?
Yes and yes.

You folks have to try both sides of things, most just assume one method, and do not try to disprove or show a reason not to do the water column dosing.

Then they tell others that they do not need to add ferts to the water column or that it might be "bad", without even having tried it.

I suppose ignorance is a method also

I'm not saying you cannot do it without any ferts...........maybe some traces..........

This is nothing new either.
Soil substrates and older methods are born out here using ADA substrate methods, essentially using soil, Amano even tells you this, that the ADA As is clay + soil etc.

So are soil substrate methods many folks that use ADA AS have done?
Not hardly..............very few ADA converts would stoop so low as to use soil and sand methods:-)

ADA As is less mess and better(grains still retain the NH4 inside them vs a large layered effect), but both have the same things in them and ago along similar time frames.

Takes some time due to NH4(and why ADA uses lots of media and carbon etc and water changes till the NH4 is well oxidized after about 1 month or so)

Regards,
Tom Barr

[plantbrain]

Originally Posted by SuRje1976

Ok - now I'm REALLY confused. I may need to go back and review some past threads, but I thought that one of the primary premises of EI is that you canNOT induce algae with high nutrient levels? AND that high CO2 levels were ideal for preventing algae. Am I reading this wrong, or is it EXACTLY the opposite of what's previously been stated?

No, I'm saying that you need high levels of PO4 and CO2 to prevent GSA, an alga I've commonly seen in ADA tanks, we have plenty in the Bay area and the guys at AF have algae issues in numerous tanks, they tend their tanks more than most aquarist. They had to tear down a number of tanks due to algae, they set up a new 180 gal tank and it's been cloudy for sometime. Some of the plants have GSA, that's a minor algae for most. I guess Penac and all that other stuff is not able to guarantee issue free tanks.

You are not going to fix every issue with something in a bottle or with nutrient limitation. You need to have a much better understanding about the algae and it's ecology to predict it and why it's there.

ADA has focused on the plants which is super, but they have not done much with algae specific inducement. I can tell if you have or not, because I've spent a long time working with that paradigm. There are clear cut things, even a newbie with 8 months of experience can tell if they had...............I think that's sad.

If you add lots of NH4(via the ADA AS leeching) and leave it there, then an ADA tank easily gets algae, same deal with poor CO2 etc. ADA offers no advantages there.


Regards,
Tom Barr

[CmLaracy]

So far with my setup, I've found great growth in all my plants (healthy and fast) with 0 algae (except a little bit of GSA on the glass), 0 NH4, and 0 NO2.

It's really been simple so far:
4wpg of Metal Halide
30-40ppm CO2
Aqua Soil of course
6-8mL of Potassium and Trace everyday in the form of Brighty K and Green Brighty Step 1
Absolutely no dosing of N or P
and 20% WC every other day from a well with a pH of 6.8 (*first month, everyday)

I've found no need at all to dose N or P, and I have a strong feeling that the Aquasoil takes care of it for me. All I need to dose is K and Trace.

For me, I think the largest contributor to my extremely low algae is the water changes. For the first month I did 20% WC's EVERYDAY and never saw a hint of algae during the almost non-existent Nitrogen cycle. My NH4 never went past 3ppm's and my NO2 never went past 1ppm. Never saw a hint of Diatoms, BBA, BGA ect ect. The water changes were always done right before or after the photoperiod, with dosings of K and Trace following directly after.

Keep in mind, 4wpg in a 40g 75p is a lot of light, and this is also my first tank... Maybe I got lucky, but I'm not really one to believe or rely on luck, I think this method has some validity to it when compared to Amano's low water column nutrients that were evident in his previous and current scapes. I hope this helps some, IME, a little bit of work goes a long way in this hobby. WC'S!!



Chris Laracy

[Momotaro]

The lack of need to dose macros with the exception of K as well as very frequent water changes is not a new development, Chris.

Those of us who have used Aqua Soil in the past have all experienced the same set of circumstances and it has been mentioned on this the forum in several different threads. We have conversed about this pretty extensively over on the NJAGC member's forum as well. In fact, during aquascaping demonstrations utilizing the ADA brand substrate system, Jeff Senske will often inform the observers of those very points.

Your observations and experiences confirm what many of us have been through in the past.

Trick for you now is going to be when to start fertilizing and how much!


Mike

[Homer_Simpson]

Originally Posted by CmLaracy

So far with my setup, I've found great growth in all my plants (healthy and fast) with 0 algae (except a little bit of GSA on the glass), 0 NH4, and 0 NO2.

It's really been simple so far:
4wpg of Metal Halide
30-40ppm CO2
Aqua Soil of course
6-8mL of Potassium and Trace everyday in the form of Brighty K and Green Brighty Step 1
Absolutely no dosing of N or P
and 20% WC every other day from a well with a pH of 6.8 (*first month, everyday)

I've found no need at all to dose N or P, and I have a strong feeling that the Aquasoil takes care of it for me. All I need to dose is K and Trace.

For me, I think the largest contributor to my extremely low algae is the water changes. For the first month I did 20% WC's EVERYDAY and never saw a hint of algae during the almost non-existent Nitrogen cycle. My NH4 never went past 3ppm's and my NO2 never went past 1ppm. Never saw a hint of Diatoms, BBA, BGA ect ect. The water changes were always done right before or after the photoperiod, with dosings of K and Trace following directly after.

Keep in mind, 4wpg in a 40g 75p is a lot of light, and this is also my first tank... Maybe I got lucky, but I'm not really one to believe or rely on luck, I think this method has some validity to it when compared to Amano's low water column nutrients that were evident in his previous and current scapes. I hope this helps some, IME, a little bit of work goes a long way in this hobby. WC'S!!



Chris Laracy

Very interesting....thanks for sharing. I set up a 15 gallon high Aquasoil II based expeimental tanks with plants that were in the most pathetic condition to begin with.

30-40 ppm c02
EI dosing(I reduced to 1/2 as per Tom Barr's recommendation but had no issues with full dosing of EI). I am using Yamato Green fertilizer for Trace Element dosing. And not to pi*s anyone off, but I just started dosing 1/8 teaspoon Seachem Equilibrium after weekly 50% water changes, just to take to the next level.
40 watt compact fluorescent lighting supplied by 2 20 watt coralmax corallife bulbs in a canopy sloppily padded with mylar sheeting.
50% weekly water changes

While too early to say as the tank has only been up since Dec 26 2007 and I know what I am doing goes against ADA recommendations and probably considered blamphesy by all you ADA Aquasoil hardcore loyalists, plant growth has tripled in that time, the floating cardamine, and riccia are pearling like there is no tomorrow, and I have yet to see any algae in any form: no diatoms, no blue green algae, no string or thread algae, no clado, no brush or beard algae.

Wood had one of the most beautiful 10 gallon tanks set up using the original Aquasoil. While he did not dose EI, he did dose phosphates, iron, and Kent Pro Plant(which I believes contains nitrates) with no issues. You can see his setup and judge for yourself. It was neglect that finally did his tank in. And neglect will do anyone in regardless of substrate and water column fertilization used.
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/f...n-planted.html

While I am not disputing the fact that you may not need to go with EI fertilization in a ADA Aquasoil based tank to see results, my issues are more with folks saying that you shouldn't do it as it will cause issues. Sorry, unless I do it and see issues for myself, I am not a believer that is why I am a tester.

[Momotaro]

You have listed two plants that are notorious nitrate sponges. Riccia in particular. I had trouble maintaining nitrate levels in the old incarnation of my 75G when I had that great mass of Riccia.

What else do you have growing? You plants could be gobbling nutrients.

Aqua Soil II vs. Aqua Soil v. 1.0. I am wondering how much that issue that is coming into play?

I think that may be an issue for you and CL, Homer. We all need to remember (me in particular) that we are dealing with a new product, so results mat start to vary. I wouldn't go so far as to say you are blaspheming the ADA favoring crowd, as much as possibly experiencing a new product and it's results!

Wood did not dose N, but dosed iron, which I would and micros too, which I would as well. Without checking, I think I'd dismiss the macros in the Kent product. I think you'd have to dose a heck of a lot in order to make a dent.

Wood dosing P? I can see the P. Phosphates can act to reduce algae. To what level was Wood dosing I wonder?


Mike

[Homer_Simpson]

Originally Posted by Momotaro

You have listed two plants that are notorious nitrate sponges. Riccia in particular. I had trouble maintaining nitrate levels in the old incarnation of my 75G when I had that great mass of Riccia.

What else do you have growing? You plants could be gobbling nutrients.

Aqua Soil II vs. Aqua Soil v. 1.0. I am wondering how much that issue that is coming into play?

I think that may be an issue for you and CL, Homer. We all need to remember (me in particular) that we are dealing with a new product, so results mat start to vary. I wouldn't go so far as to say you are blaspheming the ADA favoring crowd, as much as possibly experiencing a new product and it's results!

Wood did not dose N, but dosed iron, which I would and micros too, which I would as well. Without checking, I think I'd dismiss the macros in the Kent product. I think you'd have to dose a heck of a lot in order to make a dent.

Wood dosing P? I can see the P. Phosphates can act to reduce algae. To what level was Wood dosing I wonder?


Mike

Fair enough. I was stuck having to use a ton of plants in my tank that are heavy nitrate sponge as there is not much of a plant selection to choose from where I live(I had to work with what was/is available) and I am sure that the 50% weekly water changes probably remove a lot of excess nitrates as well. Perhaps someone from ADA can chime in here. My understanding is that ADA reduced the blacksoil component with Aquasoil II, so I if this is true, I guess it would make it less nutient rich than the original Aquasoil.

Wood was dosing 1/4 teaspoon phosphate, Monday, Wednesday, and Friday with a weekly 30% water change. Using the fertilator and using the 10 gallons as the actual volume(which would not be totally accurate), it would give 25.81 ppm phosphate and 10.63 potassium with every dose, keeping in mind that the actual tank volume would be less so thee numbers would likely be greater.

Wood was also dosing 1/4 tsp fluorish iron Mon, Wed, and Fri which equals .07 iron using fertilator for the same volume tank. He was also dosing 1/4 tsp Kent Pro Plant Mon, Wed, and Fri. The kent Pro-Plant only provides the following information but does not indicate how may mls supply this:
Total Nitrogen: 1%
Boron: .0002%
Magnesium(Mg):.05%
Sulfur:.06%
Other ingredients: Deionized water, humic extract, and kelp extract.

[Left C]

Originally Posted by Homer_Simpson

...He was also dosing 1/4 tsp Kent Pro Plant Mon, Wed, and Fri. The Kent Pro-Plant only provides the following information but does not indicate how may mls supply this:
Total Nitrogen: 1%
Boron: .0002%
Magnesium(Mg):.05%
Sulfur:.06%
Other ingredients: Deionized water, humic extract, and kelp extract.

Hi Homer

Maybe the fertfriend calculator may help with the Kent Pro Plant:
http://www.fishfriend.com/fertfriend.html

Left C

[CmLaracy]

Originally Posted by Momotaro

The lack of need to dose macros with the exception of K as well as very frequent water changes is not a new development, Chris.

Those of us who have used Aqua Soil in the past have all experienced the same set of circumstances and it has been mentioned on this the forum in several different threads. We have conversed about this pretty extensively over on the NJAGC member's forum as well. In fact, during aquascaping demonstrations utilizing the ADA brand substrate system, Jeff Senske will often inform the observers of those very points.

Your observations and experiences confirm what many of us have been through in the past.

Trick for you now is going to be when to start fertilizing and how much!


Mike

Oh yeah I know it's not anything new, but I'm just reassuring people how easy it is, and how successful it is. I really just watch the plants and dose accordingly with lots of WC's, high light, matching CO2 (Barr stated that CO2 limits are directly related to amount of light plants can use), ADA AS II, and strong filtration. Very simple, very effective, and most importantly no algae and dosing of N or P!

the only thing that might turn people off is that you do need some diligence to do large water changes everyday/every other day.

I'll keep everyone updated on it in this thread!

[Homer_Simpson]

Originally Posted by Left C

Hi Homer

Maybe the fertfriend calculator may help with the Kent Pro Plant:
http://www.fishfriend.com/fertfriend.html

Left C

Thanks Left C So plugging in the following numbers in fertfriend for Kent Pro Plant.

10 US gallons = 37.854118 litres

1/4 tsp = 1.25 ml

We get:

.3302 ppm nitrogen
0 ppm Boron
.0165 ppm magnesium
.0198 ppm sulphur

I guess without knowing the amounts in the tap water being added to the tank and how much exactly the Aquasoil may be leeching into the water column, these numbers don't mean anything, but the point is that he experienced no adverse effects from dosing the phosphate, iron, and Kent Pro Plant trace.